But for the state of Israel.....

[Ponce]

Everyone will get slapped in the hands for making trouble in or against Lebanon.....but for the state of Israel of course...... Ponce

Bush Order Targets Lebanon's Stability Published 08/02/2007 - 1:17 p.m. EDT

(AP) By BEN FELLER
Associated Press Writer

President Bush announced Thursday the United States will freeze the property and interests of people deemed to be undermining Lebanon's democratic government.

Bush's executive order targets anyone found to be helping Syria assert control in Lebanon or otherwise trying to break down the rule of law, including by means of violence.

"Such actions constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States," Bush said in an accompanying message to Congress.

MORE -------------> http://usadaily.com/article.cfm?articleID=41071

[mitunnelrat]

Ponce, I regard this as one of your better posts because you provide a link to the information you're passing along. As such, I read the article to see if its a topic I wish to follow up on. Thats how I do things: I make a determination from an informative link, rather than a user's opinion, on whether or not I'll research a topic. Too often I've found that a user's interpretation of events is skewed from the actual facts.

With that in mind, I have two things:

1. Where are you seeing a link to Israel in being able to meddle in Lebanon?

2. How do "Such actions constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States," as Bush said in an accompanying message to Congress? Anyone?

[Spike 7.62]

"Israel" is learning from her sugar-daddy, the USA, on how to invade soverign countries on a terrorist hunting trip. With the blessings of D.C., the zionists run wild.

Iraq invades Kuwait, USA heads an int'l coalition to drive them out.
"Israel" invades Lebanon, Premier Bush applauds for a job well done.

-spike

[MOlivo]

In Israels defense, lebennon RPGS them on a daily basis. Its like if you were having a BBQ in your back yard, and your neighbor kept throwing coconuts over the fence at you...wouldnt you want to march your happy little ass over there and rough him up?

[Gunfixr]

I don't know about that one. I might have more fun by posting a forward observer and lobbing them back, with the observer adjusting my fire. :lol:

[MOlivo]

I don't know about that one. I might have more fun by posting a forward observer and lobbing them back, with the observer adjusting my fire. :lol:


Or launch an aerial assault by climbing on your roof and having someone with a little more arm power lob them for you...

:rofl:

[spam_can]

OK, enough;

Time to build an air cannon for coconuts.
Some Tannerite (a lot, really) to make it more interesting.

Would that be considered escallation or retaliation?

[MOlivo]

Retaliation, because the neighbor threw them first :rofl:

[Spike 7.62]

There wouldn't be RPGs or rockets landing on "Israeli" soil if the palestinians weren't pushed out of their land and into concentration camps in the middle of the desert. Hezbollah fights for Palestinian liberation, and if the zionists weren't sitting on stolen land to begin with, then there would be no fight.

Even so, the Lebanese army didnt have anything to do with the attacking. Hezbollah did, but "Israel" invaded a soverign country anyway. I take solice in the fact that the IDF essentially lost the war, and that attacks continue. The IDFs two goals were 1) find the two captured zionist soldiers, and 2) cripple Hezbollah. Neither were accomplished, and the "July War" has strenghtened Hezbollah financially, and the organization has gained more credibility in the fight for Palestinian liberation.

-spike

[MOlivo]

Even so, the Lebanese army didnt have anything to do with the attacking. Hezbollah did, but "Israel" invaded a soverign country anyway.


I have to disagree with you abit on this issue. They invaded a "soverign" country who was harboring terrorist attacking them. I dont see any difference in this and when we went to war with afghanistan. Israel doesnt seem to be the side picking the fight in my opnion.

I know youll disagree with me but its ok, I still love you :rofl:

[Spike 7.62]

Imagine how boring life would be if everyone agreed, cant have that! :)

Afghanistan and Lebanon may as well be on different planets. The Taliban government used UBL's Al-Qaeda organization for official military and political affairs. Asking the Taliban to hand over Al-Qaeda would be like asking G.W. to hand over the Army and it's generals, but those generals would also be senators.

Lebanon has a professional (by definition) military. Hezbollah is an independant organization with many facets, and one of those being armed resistance againt "Israel". Others are political, civil, educational and so on. The Lebanese gov't does not control Hezbollah by any means, and it operates in more countries than Lebanon (Israel itself, Jordan, Iraq, Iran and more I'm sure).

"Israel" is definatly the agressor. The middle east was in relative peace until they hit the scene. Without them, there would be no war, and hatred for the west would dissipate. For a person to believe anything else, they've been drinking the zionist kool-aid and are in dire need of a historic education of middle eastern affairs.

Every single country has terrorists. Even the USA has named terrorist organizations (KKK for example). But you dont see Canada carpet bombing Washington DC in the name of "freedom" from terrorism. The "Israelis" are imperialistic and will intervene at a whims notice.

-spike

[PyroUSC]

The Phallustinians and the other Arabs are the aggressors. For every Israeli attack, there can be sited a specific reason or cause for the attack. They fight for the right to exist. The dune coons fight because they think allah hates all Jews and wants to see them slaughtered. Did you know that many of the prior inhabitants of what is now the State of Isreal, still live in Israel? The ones that left, left of their own free will because they believed that all the Arab nations would come to their aid and they would destroy Israel once and for all. They all underestimated the Israelis and so you got the "Six Day War".

The Phallustinians also thought that their arab neighbors would welcome them with open arms into their own countries. What they didn't count on was the fact that most other arabs regard the Phallustinians as dogs and wouldn't give them refuge.

Answer these if you can:
Why is it that the Israeli's make precision attacks and the Phallustinians and their supporters attack indiscriminately?

How many civilians are killed every month by Phallustinian homicide bombers?

How many Phallustinian "civilians" (I use the term loosely because they are all terrorists) are killed by Israelis, OTHER than the ones who happen to be living in the same homes as known terrorists or living next door to a home that is a bomb-making lab, or chauffeuring a terrorist leader?

Why is it that every time the Israelis give back a piece of land, the terrorists simply move their rocket launchers that much closer and continue doing exactly what they were before? They will never be happy until Israel is destroyed. That is blind hatred and racism which cannot be reasoned with. One side or the other must ALL die before there will be peace; every man, woman, child and beast of the field. I vote for the Phallustinians.

If the Phallustinians (and all terrorists for that matter) would devote their energies into building infrastructure and making their own countries better, wouldn't they be better off than they are now? Wouldn't they be less apt to want to destroy Israel and wipe them off the face of the earth, as is their stated goal?

[MOlivo]

The Phallustinians and the other Arabs are the aggressors. For every Israeli attack, there can be sited a specific reason or cause for the attack.

How many civilians are killed every month by Phallustinian homicide bombers?



+1, I def. gotta agree with you on those points.

[Spike 7.62]

I'm assuming by "Phallustinians" you mean.. Palestinians?

From "dune coons" I can tell your mind has been numbed and dumbed by the pro-israel, anti-islamic, sunny day patriot B.S. This is going to be interesting..

" For every Israeli attack, there can be sited a specific reason or cause for the attack."

Oh? I'd say prove it, but I already know you wouldnt be able to tackle 1/100ths of IDF aggression. Palestinian homes are bulldozed by field orders. All that means is that an IDF officer said "go bulldoz that" Just like German jews were forced from their homes by state order. If that's your idea of a "(cited) specific reason" then you'd also believe that the American activist rachel corrie was killed by the IDF "on accident" when protesting the destruction of Palestinian homes so that IDF snipers had better fields of view. Israeli attacks are not always responses, they push the limits to see how much will be pushed back (lebanon, 2006).

"How many civilians are killed every month by (Palestinian) homicide bombers?"

Hm. So far this month.. NONE. Last month.. still none. Month before...... none. hm. How many Palestinians starve to death every *day, or are shot every *day, or are kidnapped, beaten, arrested without warrant and harrassed every *day? Thousands.

"How many [Palestinian] "civilians" (I use the term loosely because they are all terrorists) are killed by Israelis, OTHER than the ones who happen to be living in the same homes as known terrorists or living next door to a home that is a bomb-making lab, or chauffeuring a terrorist leader?"

How many have been killed since the imperialists came in 1948? Over one million. Again, labeling them all as terrorists you show your true colors. At least it doesnt seem like you really think they're all "terrorists", whatever that is supposed to mean, because well.. from how you talk, you dont think much anyway. When you label an entire national population of human beings as "terrorists", you are insulting yourself, and the American educational system. Or, you're showing what you've been taught by the news.

"Why is it that every time the Israelis give back a piece of land, the terrorists simply move their rocket launchers that much closer and continue doing exactly what they were before?"

Um, I dont know what planet you're living on, but the Israeli's have not given back any land. Even land that the IDF captured during the various wars has not yet been completly returned to it's soverign owners. Palestinians have been forced into the desert while the inhabital parts of the country are infested with zionists. In many areas, ethic Palestinians are not allowed to enter.

"That is blind hatred and racism which cannot be reasoned with."

You're wrong on three counts here... first, it is not "blind" hatred. Hezbollah hates Israel and those who feed it. However, they denounced the Sept 11 attacks and said themselves that US civilians should not be killed in the name of jihad. Also, they say that innocent jews should not be killed either. Doesnt sound very "blind", does it? Second, it's not racism. The palestinian resistance doesnt attack any "race" or "religion", they attack Israeli's, which are a nationality. Thirdly, Hezbollah can be reasoned with. They have many political facets and have tried negotiating with the Israeli government more than once. Israel, and you can look this up if you dont believe me, has violated every single treaty it has ever signed with it's neighbors. And who can't be reasoned with?

"If the Phallustinians (and all terrorists for that matter) would devote their energies into building infrastructure and making their own countries better, wouldn't they be better off than they are now?"

Not at all. First, their country was stolen, they have no where to build. Second, when they do build, their buildings are literally destroyed. Infastucture? They live within the borders of an already bustling country.


It should be added that your acenine assumption that "The dune coons fight because they think allah hates all Jews and wants to see them slaughtered" is horribly inaccurate. First, no one belives that Allah hates all jews. I doubt you know anything about Islam, but by text, it is one of the most tolerant religions in existance, if not the most tolerant. The palestinian resistance isn't fighting against "jews" or judiasm, they're fighting against zionism. If you dont know the difference, you have no place here among adults.

Your serve.

-spike

[ak474u]

I couldn't care less if they all kill each other... Both groups in question have committed unspeakable acts against one another. I do however think it is an issue of who you can trust. As an American, I don't feel like i need to look over my shoulder when I walk down the street past a rabbi, our Muslim neighbors worry me. Is Rabbi Feldman going to fly an airplane into my office building? Not unless he's a terrible pilot. His brother might charge me a higher interest rate on my loan, but he won't slit my sister's throat for not covering her head in public. I'm part "Dune Coon" myself, and I have absolutely no use for a religion whose people come here and live the American dream, attend our schools, buy our houses, drive our cars and breathe our air, yet still have not started turning in the "terrorists" in their ranks, or at least standing up against the "radicals" of their religion. Islam is a religion without charismatic moderate leaders who can make an effort to change the world's opinions of it.

This being said I respect your views on the whole situation, that's the way the guys with their faces carved into Mt. Rushmore would have wanted it.

[Spike 7.62]

Rabbi Feldman, if he is a believer in zionism, may not be the one flying aircraft into American buildings, but he is the root motivation of those who do. Furthermore, he doesnt need to slit your sister's throat, he already owns her with his influence over the US government and should she get out of line from his imperialist views, the Dept of Homeland Security will do it for him.

I should make clear the a difference between judiasm and zionism. People who are christians, jews, muslims, any religion can be zionists. There are also many jewish people who are as anti-zionist as I am. Jewish not not equal Zionist.

-spike

[PyroUSC]

"I'm assuming by "Phallustinians" you mean.. Palestinians?"

Nope. I spelled it exactly the way I intended.

".....an IDF officer said "go bulldoz that"

You say that as if you think IDF officers are out making arbitrary decisions to bulldoze homes. Bulldozing homes is a tactic to try to discourage terrorists. "If you blow yourself up to kill us, we'll find your home and bulldoze it so your family is homeless." Would you prefer they dropped a bomb on the house? Bull-dozing is a gentle response because they don't want to upset the panty-wasted other countries by doing what they should do, bomb entire settlements to dust every time a terrorist blows himself up. Personally, I like the idea of bulldozing homes, although I'm not sure the Phallustinian brain is capable of enough forethought to realize the implications if they do blow themselves up. They're too busy fantasizing about 70 virgins.

"Hm. So far this month.. NONE. Last month.. still none. Month before...... none. hm."

That is a testament to the defenses of Israel. NOT a testament to the peace loving nature of Phallustinians. I'm sure they tried, but the border guards or the snipers got them first.

"How many Palestinians starve to death every *day"

If Phallustinians are starving to death, then perhaps they should redirect some of their prayer-time, bomb-making time, or Jew hating-time to growing a garden. Not enough water? Then they should be working on a aqueduct.

"or are shot every *day, or are kidnapped, beaten, arrested without warrant and harrassed every *day? Thousands."

Thousands? That's an exaggeration my friend. I'm sure the number of "innocent" people who suffer these fates each month could be counted on 1 hand. The rest were just good police work.

"Um, I dont know what planet you're living on, but the Israeli's have not given back any land."

DuH! Have you ever heard of the Gaza Strip? Look up "land for peace" on wikipedia.

"Palestinians have been forced into the desert while the inhabital parts of the country are infested with zionists."

The reason the Israeli land is inhabitable is because the work hard at it. Many cities have bloomed in the desert. The Phallustinians just don't have the brains or the motivation to make it happen.

"The palestinian resistance doesnt attack any "race" or "religion", they attack Israeli's, which are a nationality."

Jews are a race. They hate Jews and Caucasians in general. Why do you think they desecrate Jewish temples every chance they get? You say it isn't racism, so I guess an American Jew can feel safe to travel to the region and tour the Phallustinian areas to view their suffering? After all, as long as they aren't Israeli they are safe, right? Wrong! Those butchers would saw off his head and dump him in the street AND YOU KNOW IT!

"Not at all. First, their country was stolen, they have no where to build. Second, when they do build, their buildings are literally destroyed. Infastucture? They live within the borders of an already bustling country."

Before the Jews came, what is now Israel was the armpit of the middle east. A bunch of cave-dwelling, camel-riding, left-hand ass-whiping, dudes hanging out in the desert hardly constitutes a country. From day one, if they had resolved to co-exist with the Jews they would be flourishing.

"I doubt you know anything about Islam, but by text, it is one of the most tolerant religions in existance, if not the most tolerant."

Maybe that's the problem. They are too tolerant. They tolerate extremists who preach death and destruction to Israel and America. Maybe if they were less tolerant, we wouldn't have this terrorist problem.

Political Correctness is not my strong point as you can see. But I have no delusions about the state of the world. I despise the American government in its current state and I believe there are powers at work, American, European, and Jewish that want to enslave or kill ALL of us. That said, I love America and wouldn't want to live anywhere else in the world.

[MOlivo]

Well said pyro.

[Spike 7.62]

:lol:

Political correctness may not be your strongpoint, but neither is intelligence or education. Don't worry about being PC, but do try to add some smarts every here and there. And you're horribly dillusioned about the state of the world right now, especially concerning the occupation of Palestine. You clearly know NOTHING about which you speak, and you watch entirely too much television. Go hand over some more of your private information to another brainless, Israel-loving idiot- Premier Bush.. you two have a lot in common.

"You say that as if you think IDF officers are out making arbitrary decisions to bulldoze homes."
That's exactly what they're doing. Sometimes one dozen homes are bulldozed on the same day. And they aren't always suspected hideouts of "terrorists", lots of times the land is cleared so that IDF snipers can have better lines of sight, and artillery can reach further into the settlement.

"Would you prefer they dropped a bomb on the house?"
I'd prefer that no retribution is taken out against civilians for what a militant has done. Wouldn't you? But it doesn't matter, they bomb houses too. Along with hospitals, cars and buses.

"That is a testament to the defenses of Israel."
Hm, you asked me how many palestinian homicide bombs exploded. I looked it up, and answered. Furthermore, if anything, it's a testament that the resistance is either in lull, or in planning. IDF can protect against shootings to a degree, but nothing will stop a bomb.

"If Phallustinians are starving to death, then perhaps they should redirect some of their prayer-time, bomb-making time, or Jew hating-time to growing a garden. Not enough water? Then they should be working on a aqueduct."
Hm, I have a feeling I'm about to repeat myself... Prayer time is all some may have to keep their peace of mind in their situation. Many do make bombs, and I wish it were more, but the fact is that the vast majority of palestinians are not involved in the resistance movement. Jew-hating.. try Zionist-hating. Hezbollah, the spearhead of the anti-israel campaign, has said itself that the movement isn't against judiasm... it is against zionism. And try growing a garden without soil, without water, without tools, without knowledge and without a chance to work before being interrupted by IDF soldiers saying "you can't do that". The people in the refugee camps live in tents, they literally have nothing.

"I'm sure the number of "innocent" people who suffer these fates each month could be counted on 1 hand. The rest were just good police work."
If you believe that, you'll also believe it's an issue of "national security" when big brother and the Dept of Homeland Security knock on your door with a copy of the USA Patriot Act. You'll believe it's just good-hearted and effective policing. You may as well start shining their boots for them.

"DuH! Have you ever heard of the Gaza Strip?"
That land hasn't been given back by any means. The people living there are treated as subhumans, and there are daily, if not hourly, IDF military incursions and patrols into the heart of the Gaza Strip. Helicopter gunships, unmanned aerial drones, foot patrols, tanks, the works. Not to mention their recreation beaches are even shelled from time to time by the Israeli navy. If that is land "returned", then I bet you believe that the native Americans should be happy and grateful for their reservation homes.

"The reason the Israeli land is inhabitable is because the work hard at it. Many cities have bloomed in the desert. The Phallustinians just don't have the brains or the motivation to make it happen."
Cities in countries which are age-old (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, et cetera). The cities that the zionists inhabit were built by Palestinian hands up to 1948. From the fertile cresent until 1948, it was Palestinians living in relative peace in their cities. Don't have the brains or motivation? Try dont have tools, funding, ability and experiance.

"Jews are a race. They hate Jews and Caucasians in general."
I think that's the stupidest thing I've heard all week. Honestly, were you born government-dependant leech or did you have to work at it? Judiasm is a religion idiot, blacks, whites, asians, all people can be jewish if they want to be. For a third time, the resistance has beef with ZIONISM and IMPERIALISM, not the color of peoples skin. There havent been any hezbollah or PLO attacks in the USA, why? They dont want to kill innocent civilians, they say so themselves.

"Why do you think they desecrate Jewish temples every chance they get?"
Because if you're a jewish person living in Israel, you're a Zionist. Those temples are the homes of zionism, which is the enemy. You can't name one temple which has been attacked outside of palestine by their resistance movement.

"Those butchers would saw off his head and dump him in the street AND YOU KNOW IT!"
if he is a zionist, then I say GOOD. Zionism = Imperialism. It makes sense to assume a jew living and working on stolen palestinian land is a zionist... or else he wouldnt be there!

"From day one, if they had resolved to co-exist with the Jews they would be flourishing"
Dear Lord, please educate this man!!!! You have no right to be talking in a discussion about israeli-palestinian relations if you havent got ANY BACKGROUND KNOWLEDGE. The palestinians, then overseen by the British, were welcoming the zionists into their land. There was no initial violence, none! Just like the native americans welcomed settlers. Then, BAM, and they were being forced out of their homes at gunpoint. That is when the violence started. If you dont know you're facts, you've got no reason being here.

You dont know what it means to "despise" your government. If you're pro-zionist, you're exactly the type the gov't wants around. Because YOU think it's okay to whack a soverign nation on a terrorist hunting trip, YOU think it's "good police work" to round up and jail innocents, YOU think it's fine to make families homeless for the government, YOU think it's okay to wipe out an entire population of people. You're exactly the type the government wants.

You'd be a fine, boot clicking imperialist. When the time comes, you can be counted on to cut your mothers throat.

-spike

[PyroUSC]

I've said about all I care to say on the subject. I think your last reply pretty much makes my points for me. There can be no common ground on the subject and that is why the conflict will go on until the Father intervenes.

Notice that not once did I directly insult you. Your posts are filled with insults towards me. You simply have a different value system than I do. I believe that every human is endowed with certain rights by the Creator. One of those is to be able to live without constant fear of extermination. The Jews fight for the right to exist, the Phallustinians fight for martyrdom.

FYI Jews are an ethnic group as well as a religion. Most ethnic Jews have physical features that make them distinguishable amongst other Caucasians. I'm surprised that someone with such a vastly superior education didn't know that.

Here's something to think about. Let's assume for a moment that their land was stolen. At what point should the Phallustians just move one with their lives? I mean, if someone steals my car, I'm not gonna dedicate my entire life to getting it back. I'll sulk for a moment but then I'm gonna go out and find a new car. The Indians were smarter than the Phallustinians. They realized when the fight was lost and made the best of a bad situation. They should be thankful for life and family and friends and choose a new place to live.

[chicom]

If I may step in here gentlemen, been getting ready for a forest fire.


"Israel" is definatly the agressor. The middle east was in relative peace until they hit the scene.

Well yeah sure it was because it was all either British or French mandates which were ceded to them by the Ottoman Turks after the signing of the Treaty of Versailles of 1919. The inhabitants were essentially under colonialism for the next 30 or so years.

When the Brits pulled out in 48 and the state of Israel was recognized and immediately attcked by it's neighbors. Israel wins, Arabs go home sad, Palestinians hit the road.

In 1956 Nasser of Egypt tried to nationalize the Suez canal, Britain and France said no way Jose and asked Israel to occupy the Sinai, but they left in 57.

Then we get into the 67 and 73 war then Lebanon in the 80's. It's like a repeat the whole time.

Got a running timeline on the whole mess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... _1882-1903 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#First_Aliyah.2C_1882-1903)


Still no one has been able to refute that the land that Israel now occupies was the traditional homeland of their ancestors. The Kingdoms of Israel and Judea come to mind.

Me personally, I think we should dig up an ancestor of a Mergovian king and give it to him. Then there would be a home for all the carnies we see at renaisance festivals.

So get over it, Israel ain't going anywhere and their grandma's can beat up the Palestinians grandma's.

[Spike 7.62]

You've insulted an entire national population of people, a race and a religion. I let you know exactly what you are. The difference is, there will be people from both sides dead tonight because of your thoughts, and I was hoping someone could find education from mine. Futhermore, you've got no idea what you're talking about and your facts are entirely mixed up. I have no apologies.

But I dont think you're right about a common ground not being found. I used to be pro-Bush, pro-Israel. No kidding. But as I looked into what was actually happening on the ground, to human beings for a dictatorship masked by religion, I was turned away. I have reached a common ground with those who do NOT submit to dictatorship, oppression and imperialism. I do NOT think it's "good police work" to demographically profile arabs in Israel, and have them indefinatly held. If you are like your Israeli bretherin, maybe you won't come to the negotiating table.. just like in July of 2006 when Hassan Nasrallah (leader of Hezbollah) wanted to stop the war with Israel by trading the IDF prisoners. But the zionists wouldn't listen, and although days went by without Hezbollah attacks, Beirut continued to be bombed and Lebanese civilians continued to die while Hezbollah attempted to sue for peace. But of course to you, George Bush and Adolf Hitler, those were the "bad guys" and had it coming.

Having a car stolen is entirely different to losing your home, land, property and way of life. These people weren't pushed into a garden, they live on rocky soil which hasn't grown life since civilization. The native Americans fought, and died, for their homes. But, they submitted to imperial America.

Here's an anology to wrap your brains around...

Imagine this... long ago, the land YOU live on used to be the native Americans. Hundreds of years have passed, literally. But, now the Natives want to come back. And they have the guns, equipment and training of the world's two superpowers. You have whatever is in your house. They knock on your door, weapons drawn, saying you must leave immediatly and you can't bring anything with you. "Get out now or die". All because 300 years ago, this land belonged to someone else. Now you, your family, friends, relatives, and everyone that speaks like you, acts like you and looks like you, has to move into the desert with nothing. Not a briefcase, not a mobile home, nothing. How would YOU feel?

That's exactly what happened to the Palestinians. They lived in peace until the late 40's. Then the USA and UK came and told them to git or die. Zionists moved in. Palestinians were pushed aside by people who had never before seen that land with their own eyes, and who were there because they THINK they're ancestors lived there, and they THINK they deserve it. Now you have nothing, your children are starving, your wife suicidal, you are depressed.

I'll tell you what I'D do, I'd fight. No one is going to pull that with me. I am an armed citizen, and I will die on my feet before living on my knees. 700,000 arabs were forced out of Palestine in 1948 and sent to the desert to die. 600,000 jews were expelled from Arab countries by reaction. Meanwhile, in Europe and America, Israel was being advertised as "the land without people for a people without land". Land without people? mmmmm-hm.

"One of those is to be able to live without constant fear of extermination."

Then apply your own logic! The arabs are being exterminated by the Israeli's! It's a genocide, there are no two ways about that. The Palestinians dont fight for "martyrdom" they fight for their independance. They want zionists OUT of their land so they can have their own country back. It's not a jihad, religious war, anything like that, it is a war for liberation and independance.

-spike

[Neckbone]

When Israel forcibly vacated it's citizens from Gaza the infrastructure was left intact, including plumbing, electricity, and numerous greenhouses which were used for growing flowers and vegetables. Within weeks the Gazans destroyed most of the previously built infrastructure. Now deceased terrorist, thief, and PLO leader, Yasser Arafat, embezzeled tens of millions of dollars of foreign aid monies intended for "Palestinians" also formerly known as Egyptians or Jordanians. The intended recipients of the aid from countries such as USA were sold down the river by their supposed public servant. The money, some of which I provided via my taxed income, might have been used more wisely than furnishing a French apartment for Suha Arafat. I remember how "Palestinians" seized the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. They defecated in the sanctuary, used an ancient Holy Bible as toilet paper, killed at least one monk, and set fire to part of the building. I don't think this building had ties to Zionism as this holy, Christian site was built prior to 1948. Does anyone remember the rather rotund, bespectacled woman in the black hijab who was ululating and dancing in the "Palestinian" street when she heard of the jihadist attacks of 2001? I remember her fat azz; she didn't look as though she was starving to death in a refugee camp. I know the Israeli government isn't pure as the wind-driven snow, but I stand with Israel.

[MOlivo]

I like how when the Palestinians attack the israeili's they are peace warriors/liberators, but when the israelis bitch smack them back for throwing the first sucker punch the israelis are terrorist, murderers, ect ect.

[chicom]

That's exactly what happened to the Palestinians. They lived in peace until the late 40's. Then the USA and UK came and told them to git or die. Zionists moved in. Palestinians were pushed aside by people who had never before seen that land with their own eyes, and who were there because they THINK they're ancestors lived there, and they THINK they deserve it. Now you have nothing, your children are starving, your wife suicidal, you are depressed.


Well once again refer to the wiki. The return of the Jews to Israel began long before the 40's. It started in the 19th century. Now that was just a segment because some jews never left to begin with. I don't think they deserve it, I think they EARNED it.

Now try to wrap your brain around this one:

January 18 1919

Faisal-Weizmann Agreement between Emir Faisal (son of the King of Hejaz) and Chaim Weizmann (later President of the World Zionist Organization). "We Arabs," said Faisal, "especially the educated among us, look with the deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement... We will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home."

So, no matter which way this discussion twists or turns, standby for a counter-point.

The US and UK didn't tell the Palestinians to get or die. Where did that come from? The United States was the first nation to officially recognize the State of Israel but I don't recall it supplying implements of war to the new nation during the 48 war. I remember that Israel had to scrap and hustle to get any kind of armaments on the open market. Alot of the stuff was surplus german weapons, how ironic. In fact the Uk equipped and trained the famed Arab Legion that spearheaded the Arab invasion of 1948.

So what were the facts again?

[Christian for Israel]

give it up guys, i've dealt with these sorts before. just as all the others who stand against Israel, spike is a fanatic. as such, facts and even common sense will simply have no effect on him. you'd have a better chance arguing the second amendment with sarah brady.

[loki]

ak47u, Well said.


Molon Labe

loki

[MOlivo]

I agree that this conversation will probly go nowhere. It is what is is, theres no changing it. Its a shitty situation that more than likely will not get better. Instead of trying to live in peace, theyll continue killing each other until one side finally pushes it to the point of an all out total wr, in which the victor is the victor because their still alive and the losers are the losers because they arent.

[Spike 7.62]

Its a shitty situation that more than likely will not get better. Instead of trying to live in peace, theyll continue killing each other until one side finally pushes it to the point of an all out total wr, in which the victor is the victor because their still alive and the losers are the losers because they arent.

Unfortunatly, I think that is the one thing we can agree on.. things are probably not going to get better, and more people will kill and be killed over this, that, and the other thing. :?

-spike

[alpmco]

Its a shitty situation that more than likely will not get better. Instead of trying to live in peace, theyll continue killing each other until one side finally pushes it to the point of an all out total wr, in which the victor is the victor because their still alive and the losers are the losers because they arent.

Unfortunatly, I think that is the one thing we can agree on.. things are probably not going to get better, and more people will kill and be killed over this, that, and the other thing. :?
-spike
That right there is the true bottom line! I think we all have FINALLY reached an agreement on this issue. :)

[Christian for Israel]

amen.

arguing about things NEVER changes anybody's opinion, so why bother? hopefully we can now get on to more important things, like shooting and prepping and stuff.

[Aaron Mann]

israel is [url=http://christianparty.net/israelunresolutions.htm:bceae]in violation of more UN provisions[/url:bceae] than any other country in the world, their [url=http://www.opensecrets.org/news/pro-israel.pro-arab/index.asp:bceae]unregistered US foreign lobby[/url:bceae], [url=http://www.aipac.org/about_AIPAC/default.asp:bceae]AIPAC[/url:bceae], [url=http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A07E7DC103FF935A15757C0A96E9582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print:bceae]bullies around the US political system[/url:bceae]tirelessly. Israel [url=http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3362402,00.html:bceae]recieves more US money in foreign aide[/url:bceae] than any other nation in the world recieves. Israel has [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=israel+testing+weapons:bceae]tested new weapons[/url:bceae] on [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=israel+white+phosphorus:bceae]unsuspecting civilians[/url:bceae] without impunity. Israel has been [url=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=israel+palestine:bceae]destroying Palestine[/url:bceae]and creating itself on top of Palestine for more than 50 years, even though Israel claims it was there first. And I don't even want to go in to how they're getting everyone all sappy about all of this because of the holocaust ...

Forgive Israel for killing innocent people every day, the holocaust made them do it ....

Sounds like a serious psychological problem to me and I think Israel needs its head checked.

[Aaron Mann]

sorry, haha.

i realize you guys just did this one to death here but i've been away so i missed it.

at any rate, i'm not racist and have nothing against jews in general, but i find it hard to morally support a country or ideal that just seens to be so inhuman and devious at it's core. even jews against zionism rebel against it. they say it is not meant for them to go making a claim at "the holy land" that when the time comes, it will be given to them. this isn't the work of any god then, this is the work of man. well i'm an agnostic so i don't blieve in religions anyways, to me, those are a work of man so it makes sense then that men would also need to provide this "god's work" as well. shame really, all around. i wish a peaceful and more humane solution could have been inacted.