Bugout route

[chicom]

Worst case SHTF just happened....

Now, I know alot of you guys say you are going to bug in. But for the sake of argument, let's say that it is not feasible to stay.

Discuss:

How you would leave.

What mode would you use.

How you would travel.

What kind of routes would you use.

What type of locale would be your destination. ( no specifics please)

How would you handle contact with othes enroute to retreat.


Lets see what we come up with and then we will pick apart the various plans.

[billy870]

how would i leave: in a hurry with as much supplies as i could fit in the car

mode of leaving: car, black, very quite

how travel: back roads, cross fields, away from check points

destination: a safe one

other contact: upon meeting well see

[hiker]

It depends on my mode of transportation. My truck I can carry alot of equipment and have several places to go and have several different routes to take. Same if I have to walk out. I can drive/walk and withing 15 minutes driving/30 minutes walking be in a remote area.

[MiamiARFan]

This topic is a constant thorn in my side. Bordered by the Ocean on the right and the Everglades on the left. This leaves me with some relatively limited options.

Our most probable SHTF scenario is a Killer Hurricane. North/South routes will likely be massive gridlock as the main arteries will be virtually shutdown with evacuees, ala New Orleans/Katrina.

I've recently started with google earth to scope out potential bug out routes that may not be as well known, such as canal levees. With a good pair of bolt cutters, I might just have stumbled onto something.

Another option is a boat, but in a Hurricane, I'm not sure how well it will survive, in or out of the water. Again, this is dependent upon where the hurricane strikes.

In a non-hurricane situation, evacuation by boat might be feasible, up to a point. Ports are likely to be restricted and potential choke points. Fuel will probably become a problematic, as would transportation once I hit port. Finally, without a sufficiently large vessel (read costly), I couldn't transport anywhere near the supplies necessary to support my family and myself.

Our trailer would be a great bug out trailer/sheeple disguise, but it would also make off roading impossible.

I might just pick a spot down South of Miami, near the everglades (rural farmland) and make a beeline down there heading opposite the traffic flow.

This plan still needs lots of further refinement.

[Jared]

I have determined that the time I would have the most need for a bugout route is if I'm at work (otherwise I spend most of my time at home). I know all the roads out of town and if they all get blocked I can go on the railroad tracks out to a back road and make my way home from there.

[mitunnelrat]

At my apartment I had a combination of parking lots, nature trails (wide enough to support my Bronco), and dirt roads to utilize. I'm still exploring my new surroundings, but it doesn't look too good at the moment.

[RedNeckSCOUT]

Worst case SHTF just happened....

Now, I know alot of you guys say you are going to bug in. But for the sake of argument, let's say that it is not feasible to stay.

Discuss:

How you would leave.

What mode would you use.

How you would travel.

What kind of routes would you use.

What type of locale would be your destination. ( no specifics please)

How would you handle contact with othes enroute to retreat.


Lets see what we come up with and then we will pick apart the various plans.

Great now you got my wheels turning. Have not thought about it like that. will give it some thought and let you know.

[jackj]

Thought about using a 4wd truck, but size and gas mileage as well as initial cost seem to be against it. Thought about using a dirt bike, but it gave no possibility of bringing supplies, spare gas, etc.

Recently looking at 4wd ATV's that can carry 2 people also carry 1000lbs of weight (not sure if that includes weight of passengers).

They seem to offer good on/off road capability, good gas mileage, smaller...less likely to get stuck, also offer a more stable shooting platform while moving for defense than a bike.

Seems like 2 ATV's would be ideal for 2-4 people bugging out. Would also allow use of a small trailer that could be ditched or hidden if required. Trailer could also carry additional fuel, and a small dirt bike that could be used to recon the trip.

As to location, I would hope to have a stocked place as a destination. But frankly, these are fallback preps for me as I hope to be able to bug in should something happen.

[wnn]

anyone looked it the possibility of just following the RR tracks?If theres a major Shtf I wouldnt think the RR would be running ,but then again I may be wrong ..

[chicom]

Not a bad idea.

[BobS]

"Following the tracks" how? In a car? In a SUV? Hiking? Bicycle? Not being a smartass....this is a serious question, as I see several problems there, depending on what your choice is.

Best regards,

Bob

[wnn]

nothing really specific BobS, I do know it wouldnt be to hard to runa truck up the rails with slight vehicle mods, only problem is the big metal things(trains) Im open for suggestions tho.

[BobS]

That is one thing I was afraid of....if you measure the track width of the American truck or car you would use (imports also, but the following numbers will be different) (this is the distance from the center of the tire tread on one side to the center of the tire tread on the other side), you will notice 2 things-usually the rear track width is narrower than the front track width by 2 to 3 inches (there are a LOT of design factors that affect this, including the original designed in understeer of the vehicle) on average-but it can be as much as even front and rear to 6" narrower. If this distance os too great-you will "fall off" the rails of the train tracks due to the contour of the steel or aluminum wheel the tire is mounted to. Lowering the tire pressure mitigates SOME of this, but that will not eliminate the issue.

Next, take the numbers you have measured and measure the gauge (center to center) of the 2 train track rails and subtract that from the vehicle widest measurement.....you will find the the difference is usually (for a passenger car or light truck) to be about 3" per side wider for the vehicle or more.

What all this means is that an unmodified truck (or passenger car) will NOT "ride the rails", regardless of what Pournelle and Niven said in "Lucifer's Hammer" (a very famous SHTF novel). We had to have special, narrow track axles (for 4x4) and special short control arms (4x2 for GM-Dodge used a 4x4 dead front axle) and wheels built for the railroad trucks sold to COnrail and others while I was at both GM and Chrysler for just this reason.

This is just one "oops"...

Best regards...

Bob

[BobS]

...a couple of pics I found clearly showing the difference,,,,

http://gcerailway.org/pmikemarshandhirail2.jpg

http://gcerailway.org/pjohnmcandhirail2.jpg

Note how much farther out the wheels and tires are outboard on this civilian 3/4T Chevy pickup (use the wheelhouse opening as the reference and the center hub surface):

http://www.drivebigtruck.com/includes/images/Chevy_Silverado/1998ChevroletSilverado.jpg

Best regards,

Bob

[BobS]

ADDENDUM NOTE:

This is NOT to say it cannot be done at all.....I am saying that the concentration required to drive a stock truck on rails and NOT BEAT THE HELL OUT OF IT is the problem- it takes a LOT of concentration and VERY low speeds to keep from falling off- and that you CAN do it for a short period of time. Much more than a couple of hundred miles of this abuse in total, and you will start breaking parts like wheel bearings, tie rods, knuckle bushings in 4x4 and ball joints in 4x2's, shock mounts (usually the lower ones), ripping of tire treads, blowing out the sidewalls, etc.....

Best as always,

Bob

[BobS]

The issue you mentioned of "knowing where the iron is", is relatively simple to solve. See:

http://on-track-on-line.com/scanner-radio.shtml

...for information on all the US and Canadien frequencies and what to listen in on. You can do a couple of things to monitor these- my choice would be to have a set of dual tray Motorola Syntor radios programmed with these frequencies (a pair of 50watt transcievers is all you need, plus a buddy that programs ham bands in these), MURS (by using a Moto PAC-RT and MVA with a handheld like my MT1000), and GMRS frequencies, as well as your choice of governmental and ham VHF-lo band and UHF analog radio channels (the Syntor is NOT a digital radio). Going to eBay, you can find these radios and the needed parts for a couple of hundred dollars, including a alphanumeric display to control both radios. See:

http://www.batlabs.com/x9000.html

...for info on controlling the dual radio heads and 128 channel conversion procedures on the Syntors. FYI- a pic of a Syntor X9000:

http://cgi.ebay.com/MOTOROLA-SYNTOR-X9000-VHF-XX-9000-RADIO-XX9000_W0QQitemZ300253426711QQihZ020QQcategoryZ465 39QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Best regards,

Bob

[midtennchip]

Obviously, I'm new to the site, but I have given a LOT of thought to bug out routes and the like. It seems to me that bugging out should be a last resort (ie: there is an environmental reason -- biological, nuclear, weather, etc -- for not staying put). I also think in terms of (a) immediate bug out versus (b) controlled (or delayed) bug out.

If an immediate bug out is required, I have a route based mainly on the roads with the least amount of traffic (and if possible, those that do NOT cross an interstate). We live in a suburb, but have family about 2 hours away in a fairly rural area (< 15,000 in the county). If we have to bug out quickly, this is where we'll go in at least a two car convoy (we have my parents and total of 5 kids). All along the route I have marked departure points just in case the route is blocked or we run into resistance. In all, I am not planning on bugging out unless an environmental issue arises or we run out of supplies and would have a better chance elsewhere (but that would be months after the SHTF event).

But, I'd offer the following thoughts on bugging out:

1. Bugging out does negate some of your other efforts to prepare (ie: may leave items behind, more open to attack during the bug out, may get stuck before getting to a safe place).

2. Railroads are inherently difficult routes for both the reasons discussed above and because you may run into a bridge or stopped train that prevents you from going forward. Some railroad bridges would be extremely difficult for a car/truck to cross.

3. I've read about yes major power line easements, but those have inherent problems, as well. Specifically, they often cross rivers/streams, go over steep inclines, etc. that would be impossible to use in a vehicle.

If you must bug out, the best you can do is have multiple routes and multiple exit points from your route(s) in case of unforseen difficulty.

[Airec]

I work for CSX as a Signal Maintainer. I drive the rails on a daily basis in a Hi-Rail truck. It is a F-350 truck modified. They use spacers to widen the axles and use a negative offset to bring the wheels back in to the proper width. It is difinetely a science. You will notice from the pics BobS posted that the truck sits on the track via 4 hi-rail wheels and the 4 tires. The hi-rails take most of the weight. There is only 200 lbs left on each tire of the truck. Even with all the weight on the hi-rails, the trucks can easily be derailed, especially over a switch. The recommended speed over a switch is less than 5mph.

Train traffic is at best unpredictable. You would have to be very knowledgable of the local railroad to know when a train is close and where its heading via radio. A train crew will call out signal indications as they pass them. For example, a train crew would say, "Q57823(the train id), clear signal(green light) at South Carter(signal location) on the Main(which track) North(direction), out." Most of the time these signal locations are named after old train stations that do not exist anymore.

During a major SHTF situation, the railroad would shut down. However, the govn't would take control of the railroad and would use it to transport supplies and people, etc. Even with procedures in place during normal times we still have accidents, such as head on train collisions, etc. I imagine things would get very confusing with a govn't takeover. The govn't would be unable to successfully run several trains without the "normal" employees operating things.

Here is the dangerous part of driving down a track in such a situation. Even if you knew a train is coming your direction, you can basically only get off the track at a road crossing. If you couldn't get off in time you would have to out run the train. You will probably derail trying to out run the train. If you do derail it would be very hard (impossible) to get your vehicle clear of the track.

My post is getting too long and probably very boring but if anyone has any questions about this topic just ask.

-- Airec

[Airec]

I also meant to say without a hi-rail system, it is impossible to stay "balanced" on the rails. Even if you stradle the rail with your tires, it is virtually impossible to get your tires to climb the side of the rail to get off the track outside of a road crossing. Trust me I speak from experience.

Your only bet is to "borrow" a hi-rail truck.

-- Airec

[BobS]

Airec, thanks for confirming what I remembered (it's been 25 years since my work at GM and 15 since Chrysler...LOL). If I remember correctly, the max speed we were required to meet (since neither of these mfgrs supplied the hi rail system-just the attachment points in the frame) was 30mph (?) I think for track use.

One point though...there is a way to climb the rails, but it is really, REALLY hard on the tires. The military had a kit for the M35A2 and up 2.5 ton and M813 5 ton trucks to use the rail system. What this consisted of was a special set of "hi rail" wheels that bolted to the split rim "combat" wheels (the ones used with bead locks on the tires for running low pressures) on the inside. The procedure was to lower the pressure in the tires to 20 psi (you had to have the highly lugged XML tires to perform this trick) and then use the lugs of the tires, while in 1st gear and low range of the transfer case (to keep speeds down and allow the lugs to grip the rail), to climb the rail as you turned the truck from a 45degree approach angle to the rails in the direction you wanted to travel, into alignment with the rails. Once all 6 tires (this was only on a super single equipped vehicle) were aligned, you let the tire pressure down to 10 psi to allow the inboard hi rail wheels contact the rails while the truck tires provided propulsion against the cross ties. The low pressure allowed the uneven tie surface to not derail the hi rail wheels. Max speed was, again, as I remember, 15-20 mph with this kit maximum.

Best regards,

Bob

[Airec]

BobS,

The current hi-rail systems allow us to go 40mph if the track allows that speed. Many parts of the track are damaged and have been down graded to speeds of say 25mph.

That's interesting about the military vehicles. I wasn't aware of their setup.

I strongly suggest that no one attempts this mode of travel in SHTF. It is just too dangerous to put a truck on the tracks. And a train is very unforgiving. The railroad is a good route to follow. I would suggest 4x4 atv travel along the tracks or a dirt bike. This would probably not be a good bug out route, but more likely when you're traveling into a town for supplies or traveling to the next town to check on family or friends.

-- Airec

[Choles]

How you would leave: Early morning, one to two hours before dawn.

What mode would you use: On foot

How you would travel: Same

What kind of routes would you use: Following powerlines.

What type of locale would be your destination. Small corporate building (not relating to retail supplies, white collar building only, excluding doctor/dentist/vet building).

How would you handle contact with others enroute to retreat: Stay hidden and out of sight if at all possible; if necessary, with extreme caution and keep moving to location. Trust no one.

This is in response to the question. I hope I never have to leave but here it is if necessary. I live in a densely populated area. Wall to wall traffic for over 8 hours on major highways here just for labor day weeked. I cannot imagine real shtf scenario here. No one could get out on any highways or streets. I have small caches hidden along power line areas just in case I have to leave my house. I figured that a small corporate office had the least chance of being sacked by looters. I found one close to a small stream also. So hoepfully, if I had to leave, it would be temporary until most leave or perish. That's the best I can do around here.

[BobS]

Following on the rialroad info-a person I have only talked to by email invited me on a trip....

http://www.narcoa.org/images/21.jpg

I have never played with one of these little things, but from what I have been told, there are trips all over North America with groups that own these speeders privately. I have to check my schedule, but this looks like a good way to check out potential "travel routes" and conditions before actually getting caught on the proverbial bridge...

See:

http://www.narcoa.org/

http://www.railspeeders.com/

...for more info.

Best regards,

Bob

[Alredneck]

Bob you got pics of that system for the M35, I have XMLs on my deuce singled already on stock split rims, It does way better offroad than before. It would be interesting to see what you are talking about. I to have thought about running the rails in emergancys but would more likely straddle the iron and have a bumpy ride, but still get where I was goin, also with 4 wheel or 6 wheel drive jumping the track with my knobby tires shouldnt be a problem just a bit of effort considering in the deuce I have no power steering ( wiating for the money to upgrade )

[BobS]

Bob you got pics of that system for the M35, I have XMLs on my deuce singled already on stock split rims, It does way better offroad than before. It would be interesting to see what you are talking about. I to have thought about running the rails in emergancys but would more likely straddle the iron and have a bumpy ride, but still get where I was goin, also with 4 wheel or 6 wheel drive jumping the track with my knobby tires shouldnt be a problem just a bit of effort considering in the deuce I have no power steering ( wiating for the money to upgrade )
Sorry, no. I have only seen and played with one truck equipped with the rail wheel kit, down at Aberdeen PG in the mid 1980's. The rail wheels bolted to the back side of the combat wheel bolts (that hold the 2 pieces of the beadlock wheels together), had a 1/2 inch thick spacer for the hubs (to prevent the added rail wheels from hitting the brake drums and wedge brake cans on the 5 tons). All 6 wheels were modified (I don't remember if CTIS was part of the "kit" or not-I don't think so because the Rockwell's don't have the spindle passages for the air supply and bleed, like the 5 ton rockwells or Eaton's) and the warning was not to drive faster than 35mph on paved roads (the tires would bounce when you hit a pothole) and cram the inner edge of the rail wheels into the road surface, possibly bending or cracking them.

I do not know how widespread the kit was....

Best regards,

Bob

ADDENDUM: the truck I played with was a deuce...I never saw the 5ton kit, only drawings for the parts. Due to the bolt pattern difference between the 2.5T and 5T axles (6 versus 8 bolt) the rail wheel spacer was different for each.

[Ltlabner]

Have thought about this a lot since joining this site. We live on the east side of Cincinnati so my main plan is to jump on SR-32 and head east. We are within 3 miles of being in "wide open country" so as long as we can cover that ground we ought to be able to avoid most gridlock, blockades, etc. I have a number of routes planned to bypass the last "outpost".

If we get a late start and 32 is jammed up, I've got 3 alternate routes, all of which head staight east out of the Cincy area.

Heading east we can:
* Make it to the Hocking Hills are of SE Ohio. Lots of hills, valleys, desolate places. This might be a good place to make a bee-line and then set up a small camp to rest, try to get some intell on what is going on, etc.

* Keep heading east to West Virginia. I'm thinking that might a good place to disapear for a while. Big problem will be crossing the Ohio River

* Head east and then turn south into Eastern Kentucky. This provides plenty of desolate hilly areas to hide out. Also, we have family in Ashland Kentucky so that might be an option for future linkup. The challenge there, like WV, is crossing the Ohio.

[Alredneck]

Thank anyway Bob, the only deuces that have the CTIS are the M35A3s and those are goin for mega bucks on the auctions right now if you can even find one. I put the 5ton 46inchers tires on my wheels they are the biggest that will fit with no mods. So They will have to do for now.

LT, bridges are bad choke points, I to worry about crossing them or having acess to them when the time comes, I can ford almost 8 ft of water if its not to mushy but there are quite a few rivers to cross in the south and headed to where I want to go!

[BobS]

Thank anyway Bob, the only deuces that have the CTIS are the M35A3s and those are goin for mega bucks on the auctions right now if you can even find one. I put the 5ton 46inchers tires on my wheels they are the biggest that will fit with no mods. So They will have to do for now.

LT, bridges are bad choke points, I to worry about crossing them or having acess to them when the time comes, I can ford almost 8 ft of water if its not to mushy but there are quite a few rivers to cross in the south and headed to where I want to go!
Yep, the one I played with was an A2C as the A3 did not exist yet, at that time. I do remember the kit was "supposed" to be a requirement of the A3, but-as I was working on FMTV at the time- I don't know how widespread it ended up being.

Best as always,

Bob

[ZombieMAster]

Flordia port saint lucie

trasportation depends if i want to hide or go rambo.
HIDE: off road ATV
Rambo: Buildoser:apc:

The route i would take
Hide: everglades and national forests
Rambo: DO 60 in a buildoser and smash any thing in my way on the turnpike all the way to key west then blow the 15 mile brige so i cant be followed

would i take others with me that i found
Hide: that depends on there supplys there age and medical condition if there a fellow survivalist then there welcome to join
Rambo: you got a gun and want to climb on to my buildoser and help then come on if i have to carry your ass then f u

Where would i go
Hide: everglades lol fide me in there you terrorist fucks
Rambo: key west and then out to sea

[jj2k]

I plan on using a hand drawn cart and traveling by foot. I think that in an SHTF scenario gasoline would be a luxury few of us could afford or find. I have 2 or 3 locations scoped out and at least 2 or 3 ways to reach any of them. Hiding is not a problem. But I think I would be traveling at night, quiet, & no lights. I would hide and rest in the daylight hours until my destination is achived. Personally I think the coming days are going to be much harder than any of us can imagine. I plan to bug in until that is no longer an option. But the cart will be loaded and ready to go on a moments notice. As to routes, well that would be dirt roads, power lines, and railroad tracks etc. My destination would be hilly, wooded, and secluded. I'd be able to stay as long as need be but I'd want to keep contact via a hand crank radio to know what is going on. As far as coming across others go, I'd keep my distance, hide and wait. I won't start nothing but I don't won't nothing started. Just some of my thoughts on the matter.

[Shotgun693]

If it gets so bad that my home is to dangerous a place to stay then I'd suppose that there's no where else safe either. I have my Get Home Bag and will walk if I have to.
If you check, most RR Tracks inside of a Metro area have service roads. You could use these to avoid crowds and to avoid road congestion. You would need to ride or better yet bicylce the route to see if it can take you passed areas you want to avoid. Some are also impassable during bad weather.
I was a RR Special Agent in Houston for a couple of years. I knew the service roads better than I did the city streets.
It's important to know that RR Cars carry all kinds of goods from gasoline to groceries. If and during SHTF, RR yards and abandon trains can be worth checking out.

[Ltlabner]

Unfortunatley if things get really bad, I'd want to head to the Gulf Coast of Mississippi where we have many mnay extended family. It's a very rural area and most people there are equipt to deal with life without the perks.

The bad part is it's a EOTWAWKI going 700+ miles overland is going to be a very difficult propsition. Unless we can "acquire" a small plane and cover a lot of distance quickly it's going to be hard to drive the Rav4 overland that distance.

I've even thought about buying a boat big enough to make the trip down the Mississippi and haul enough goods to make the trip. If we can make it to just north of New Orleans we're only about 60 to 80 miles from where'd I'd want to me. Problem is the cost of the boat, the cost of maintianing it and short of just winging it I wouldn't know my starbord from my poop-deck.

[Howlingwolf]

I've even thought about buying a boat big enough to make the trip down the Mississippi and haul enough goods to make the trip. If we can make it to just north of New Orleans we're only about 60 to 80 miles from where'd I'd want to me. Problem is the cost of the boat, the cost of maintianing it and short of just winging it I wouldn't know my starbord from my poop-deck.


You would also be faced with a Lock and Dam system on the Missippi. Barges stage in the locks and the water level is either raised or lowered to the next stretch of the river depending on if you are going upstream or downstream...you would have a lot of portaging to do.

Wolf