So, what's up with these FEMA prison camp stories?

[Seitengewehr]

I was googling for something in the news about a Northcom deployment and I come across a website, forget link, that babbled on about Fema prison camps, aka Fema death camps and prisoner transport trains.. From what I remember, this website said stuff about the prisons were built by halliburton corp then something about preparation for mass graves and a delivery of 500 thousand plastic coffins that hold 3 bodies each..

Anyway, I thought perhaps the creator of the website was a loon, but now, I wonder.. Fema is for emergencies like hurricanes, earthquakes, etc, so wtf they need prisons for?

[arpacker]

Research: The Garden plot project, REX 84, PPD51, it will give youu an idea of what they are talking about.

[yugoshooter]

Its called the NWO my friend, when you learn what they are all about you will see how the rest falls into place. Google it, New World Order.

[chicom]

On the other side of the coin, these FEMA camp stories have been circulating for decades.


Would you like a little salt?

[FISTER]

Dont worry aparently you dont spend much time in the camp before they dump your body in the swamp with a single shot to the head :)

[NonConformist]

I keep hearing stories yet no one has a pic of such a facility

[yugoshooter]

Here take your pick of pics.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=FEMA+camps&aq=f&oq=

[NonConformist]

meh, an industrial park with good security and a surplus train...I seriously doubt the NWOP would have a Military marked train at an ostensibly secret camp.

Looks like the Port here in Tampa in some spots...

IDK thats pretty thin Yugo...

[yugoshooter]

Do your own research then, the info is out there.:D

[Kobayashi Maru]

Why do you think you can't find an MRE or any Mountain Home product on the shelves anymore? They gotta have 'em stocked, for all the people they'll lock up who vote 3rd party this fall (and they'll KNOW who we are! Secret ballot my AZZ!!!! :ticked:). ;)

:eek:

[yugoshooter]

Look how close to martial law we are. Even if you don't like Alex listen to what Sherman says. http://www.infowars.com/?p=5061 :eek::x

[mr slow]

I'm the type to do my own research and as Yugoshooter said there a lot of proof out there. There is enough to make me think there is something going on behind our backs.

[gerhard1]

The problem is a lot of what you see on the net or hear from 'patriot' groups is simply not true. Case in point: several years ago, I worked at Boeing Wichita, and heard from various patriot groups and websites that a huge new airport was being built very near Liberal, Kansas. The purpose for this airport I was told, was to facilitate the rapid movement of UN forces for when they would take over once Clinton declared martial law.
Having nothing better to do, my late mother and I decided to take a little day trip and find out for ourselves. We reasoned that a construction project of that size would be impossible to hide from the local population. When we got there, we asked several people about it and we were not surprised to find out that that the 'patriot' information was bogus.
I was looking today at the FEMA coffins you-tube video, and that got me thinking about the detention facilities that they are supposed to have. I looked up one thread on Above Top Secret site about how this lovely lady tried to deliver food, etc., to a FEMA facility here in Oklahoma for the victims of Katrina, only to have most of her donations turned away.
There was another site on the Katrina people that had been transported to Utah, and in this site, the situation was the same. What makes me suspicious is that the teenaged son used the exact same phrase to describe his reaction to what was happening. It was a reference to an obscure city.
The two stories are told in exactly the same way, with the same basic thing happening in both websites and the exact same phrase used by a teenage boy to describe an event. Yet the alleged events took place in two separate states about 1200 miles apart.
There are simply too many coincidences in the two stories for them not to very likely be the same story told by different people.
I am not saying that there are not contingency plans for martial law should it ever be declared. Of course there are. All that I am saying is to try not be too gullible.
Just because a 'patriot' website says it, does not, by definition, make it so.
Check it out, and don't believe everything that you see on the net.

[gshermer777]

I got pissed off with these FEMA camp stories. When I first started studying 911 I found out about FEMA prisons. I Googled Glendale CA and found multiple posts of a "FEMA" camp with military personal. I found this very interesting being I live about 2 blocks from there. I went to Google maps and sure enough it was a large round structure with bob wire surrounding it. So I figured I'd go check it out. It turned out to be a water storage tank. They are all over our mountains. I posed several requests to abovetopsecret.com to remove it but no reply. I have only seen ONE legit SEMI legit video on YouTube that may be real. Alex Jones claims there are thousands of them. I haven't seen any real evidence.

[gerhard1]

I got pissed off with these FEMA camp stories. When I first started studying 911 I found out about FEMA prisons. I Googled Glendale CA and found multiple posts of a "FEMA" camp with military personal. I found this very interesting being I live about 2 blocks from there. I went to Google maps and sure enough it was a large round structure with bob wire surrounding it. So I figured I'd go check it out. It turned out to be a water storage tank. They are all over our mountains. I posed several requests to abovetopsecret.com to remove it but no reply. I have only seen ONE legit SEMI legit video on YouTube that may be real. Alex Jones claims there are thousands of them. I haven't seen any real evidence.

A lot of these websites don't want to remove or correct this type of story. They are like the paranormal sites that once a story is told, it, by golly stays on even if it is debunked. I suppose that it is just too good of a story to let go of. And they are good stories. The only problem is that they are just not true.

[mr slow]

I seen a old movie in black and white with Glen Ford. The movie was about the depression.The poor farmers went there looking for work or as a stop over to get back on there feet. I can get a idea how a FEMA camp would hold the poor and weak as prisoners and make them slave labors.In the movie the bad guys were the union busters.They forced the poor sheep to labor in their fields and never get ahead to be able to leave.All I know if you are not prepared to weather this huge storm coming you might see a camp.I can see a Fema Camp being used for evil purposes.I have had FEMA training at my ex job.FEMA is training medical personel to assist them in helping in a disaster.FEMA camps would be needed in a major disaster to possibly relocate a whole city of people that may be hurt and starving.You can't just let these people roam around broke and pissed off at our government for there predictment.I bet these camps would be used if there is rioting in the cities.There is different type of camps I bet. One camp you never leave and the other you are slave labor.

[elkhuntingfool]

I'm the type to do my own research and as Yugoshooter said there a lot of proof out there. There is enough to make me think there is something going on behind our backs.

You can GUARANTEE things are being done behind our backs - always has been that way and there is absolutely no reason for anything to change. There will be no reasons given as to why - need to know basis - and you don't need to know - yada yada yada. I for one am glad we aren't told everything - there'd be too much panic in the world.

[sparky241]

sorry dble post

[sparky241]

here ya go

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=0P-hvPJPTi4


http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=jeqjykY5wPk

[gerhard1]

here ya go

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=0P-hvPJPTi4


http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=jeqjykY5wPk

No disrespect intended nice sir, but these videos are hardly definitive proof. In the first video, how do you know that this facility is being readied as an extermination center? That is the conclusion of the producer, but that is not the only use for which industrial buildings are put.

And as far as the plastic boxes that is all they are: plastic boxes. They look like storage containers to me. I have several large plastic storage containers. So, does that put me under some suspicion as well?
These type of sensationalist videos have been around since practically forever, and I am amazed that people still believe them.

[yugoshooter]

No disrespect intended here either but I guess some people will have to learn the hard way. Before I dismiss anything I keep an open mind about it. I pray we are wrong but deep inside I feel that its coming.

[MOlivo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBbiwLw66p4

Even the folks @ MTV are worried about it...That doesnt suprise you?

[gerhard1]

No disrespect intended here either but I guess some people will have to learn the hard way. Before I dismiss anything I keep an open mind about it. I pray we are wrong but deep inside I feel that its coming.

I'm not completely dismissing it, nice sir, but please, for pete's good sake, use a little common sense. These videos are put out mostly by anti-Bush wackos and are simply a regurgitation of what the right wing anti-Clinton wack jobs said during the 1990's and he never declared martial law no matter how much the right wingers said that he would. Incidentally, I despised Clinton, and I still do.
Now, does the government have contingency plans for the possibility that martial law may one day be declared? You bet they do. But is there any credible evidence (and I mean from other than Bush-hating websites) that martial law is imminent? I don't think that there is.
What do you want to bet that four years from now, we will see the same thing happen if either McCain or Obama gets elected?
In short, nice sir, I have an open mind, but I also urge people to use common sense.

[gerhard1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBbiwLw66p4

Even the folks @ MTV are worried about it...That doesnt suprise you?With all due respect to you, my good sir, MTV is hardly a source that I would consider for hard news.
Besides, I saw that PSA as a warning to simply be vigilant, not that an American Holocaust is imminent.
Again, with due respect.

[yugoshooter]

There have been executive orders on the books about martial law long before Either shrub came to power. Do you know How close we where to it when 9/11 happened? If the plane that supposedly went down in PA would have hit its target(The white house) Martial law would have been enacted. Remember we are one natural disaster, terrorist attack or major military action away from it now. Hell even Newsweek had the Police state on its cover not long ago. :shock:

[gerhard1]

Yes, I am very much aware of the existence of the various EO's, some of them dating back to the Truman administration. But these are contingency plans that any prudent government makes for various types of catastrophes, not plans to seize power just because they want to.

If the government is as anxious to declare martial law as some seem to think, then why haven't they manufactured some excuse like Hitler did in the early 1930's with the Reichstag fire? They could very easily do so.

[MOlivo]

No need to be overly polite, we're just having a discussion :) Back on topic, My point about MTV showing that video is for a Mainstream completely non-political TV station to be showing something like this is abit out of the norm, wouldnt you say?

[yugoshooter]

Yes, I am very much aware of the existence of the various EO's, some of them dating back to the Truman administration. But these are contingency plans that any prudent government makes for various types of catastrophes, not plans to seize power just because they want to.

If the government is as anxious to declare martial law as some seem to think, then why haven't they manufactured some excuse like Hitler did in the early 1930's with the Reichstag fire? They could very easily do so.They did! It was called 9/11. Now they are just waiting for the next one so they can say we need you to comply 100% with us so another attack wont happen. People that wont will be put in the camps. If they would try it all at once they know most people wont comply and will revolt.

[gerhard1]

I saw the PSA broadcast on on MTV more as a warning to be vigilant than anything else. It did not say or imply that anything unusual is afoot; it is merely a warning to be on our toes.
Like it was said in one of my earlier posts, if the government is so anxious to declare martial law, they could very easily manufacture some incident.
My mind is open, but it is going to take credible evidence to convince me, and these you-tube videos are just like the NWO videos that I saw on VHS tapes from the 1990's. So many things that are said by these people and on these tapes, I have found out, are simply not true.
Please permit me to to tell a couple of stories from my days at the flight line at Boeing Wichita. Hopefully, these will illustrate my point.
The guys that I worked with out there were a great bunch of guys, but for some reason, a lot of them in the flight line tended to be those that we called patriots back then. However, they would accept almost anything that they were spoon-fed. One example of this was a purported EO signed by Clinton that prohibited anyone from having more than two weeks of food in their house. The guys on the flight line were outraged by this obvious attempt by the Clinton administration to increase its' grip on the American people. I was concerned about it too, and wondered how such an edict would be enforced, so I called the local Congresssman, Todd Tiarht. The man told me that there was no such EO, that we could have all the food in our house that we wanted. Since Tiarht had a lot of credibility with those guys, they relaxed.
Another one was two guys that were all worked up because the UN was going to force everyone in the world to use the same currency. They had by golly read it in a UN pamphlet or something, and being as how the UN was involved something evil must be in the works. I asked to see the source, so they brought it to me. They had taken the word 'currency' completely out of context, taking it to mean money. I showed them in the context of the pamphlet that the word meant 'to keep current with', not 'money'. You could almost see the relief on their faces.
There are other stories that I could tell you about my days on the Boeing flight line and just before, that are both amusing and pathetic at the same time. However, if I did that would make this post overly long.
My main point here is not that contingency plans persuant to various EO's don't exist; they do. I believe that there may very well be a grand plan by a powerful outside goup to dominate the world. My point here is simply a plea to please use your common sense, and check things out. Simply because an anti-NWO website says something, does not automatically make it so.

[gerhard1]

They did! It was called 9/11. Now they are just waiting for the next one so they can say we need you to comply 100% with us so another attack wont happen. People that wont will be put in the camps. If they would try it all at once they know most people wont comply and will revolt.

Yeah, right!! :roll:

[yugoshooter]

You be a sheep if you like and you will find out the hard way. Thats all i got to say about this subject. Have a nice short life in the camp.:p

[gerhard1]

If being open-minded is being a sheep, all I can say is baaahhhh!!!

You take care, my friend.:D

[Kicker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vulfeAH-MWc&feature=related

There are two sides to every story personally I like this one

[NonConformist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vulfeAH-MWc&feature=related

There are two sides to every story personally I like this one


Dang good point and video! :rifles:

[RedNeckSCOUT]

Why do you think you can't find an MRE or any Mountain Home product on the shelves anymore? They gotta have 'em stocked, for all the people they'll lock up who vote 3rd party this fall (and they'll KNOW who we are! Secret ballot my AZZ!!!! :ticked:). ;)

:eek:


Thats why I get mine from the supply Sgt.:rifles:

[gerhard1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vulfeAH-MWc&feature=related

There are two sides to every story personally I like this one

My own feeling on this is (probably much to the surprise of a certain poster here) somewhere in the middle. While the evidence supporting the existence of the FEMA death camps is very weak, and please note that I said weak, not non-existent, I won't say that martial law is impossible. It would definitely take foreign troops to implement, and I don't think for a moment that the UN would not do it.
Also, FWIW, I recall the survey done by Marines at their base in, IIRC, Twentynine Palms, California, where they were asked if they would fire upon American citizens if they refused to turn in their guns. The response was overwhelmingly (and in some cases obscenely) negative. I don't know if that survey was an urban myth or not, but even if it was, I find it difficult to believe that US troops would kill their fellow Americans just to get their guns.
Which goes to show that if martial law is ever imposed on the people of this country, it would for sure take foreign troops

[Col.Kurtz]

Yeah, right!! :roll: So do you believe the 'official' report? 9/11 is one highly documented incident. The mountains of evidence defying the 'official' report are staggering. At no point can the 'official' report be supported by the evidence. Building 7 is not even mentioned in the 'official' report. Hows that for half-assed coverup? Demolition experts, yeah the same guys who are paid millions by other experts to bring down buildings safely and professionally, UNIVERSALLY say the twin towers(and building 7) were controlled demolitions. There in Oklahoma City, you got to see the results of a bomb on a building. That building was half blown away by a bomb yet still stood(what was left).
I'm sure there were some jews on a train who still at that point doubted that the government had their worst interest in mind.

[gshermer777]

I seen a old movie in black and white with Glen Ford. The movie was about the depression.The poor farmers went there looking for work or as a stop over to get back on there feet. I can get a idea how a FEMA camp would hold the poor and weak as prisoners and make them slave labors.In the movie the bad guys were the union busters.They forced the poor sheep to labor in their fields and never get ahead to be able to leave.All I know if you are not prepared to weather this huge storm coming you might see a camp.I can see a Fema Camp being used for evil purposes.I have had FEMA training at my ex job.FEMA is training medical personel to assist them in helping in a disaster.FEMA camps would be needed in a major disaster to possibly relocate a whole city of people that may be hurt and starving.You can't just let these people roam around broke and pissed off at our government for there predictment.I bet these camps would be used if there is rioting in the cities.There is different type of camps I bet. One camp you never leave and the other you are slave labor.

I agree. But how the heck do you "prepare" when the depression lasted 10 years? The average American is in debt $10,000 just in credit cards. Who has 5 years of salary saved? I have a year's worth of savings and feel like a millionaire.

[Synder1313]

FM41-30 has the full detailed description of FEMA's purpose, it is for more than natural or manmade emergency incidents.
Please google "REX 84" ,"operation garden plot" and "Civilian Inmate Labor Program" (which is also in the library of Congress, and is an official document).
if you don't like reading official documents (and I don't blame ya! talk about blurried-eye boring..) watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufxsUCKJ51M
I generally try to stay away from the hosted site (St Brigetta) because it is religious at times and disqualifies it as a "scholarly source" but I did my homework and this vid is accurate.

[dksac2]

I don't know about killing stations at FEMA camps, but I do believe that camps are set up. Not the thousands as some think, but I'm pretty sure things are in place for Martial Law. We are a much different country than we were during the last depression. All the welfare queens, drug dealers, gang bangers and other low life scum who will do anything but work and expect to be taken care of will be out rioting, stealing and killing. I don't think they will last too long, but how long will it take until the sheeple start getting into the act because their family's are hungry. Obamas new plan to put people to work sent the market up today, but as we all know his plan does not create any wealth and will just make things worse. I guess I have been a little behind the 8 ball as I just saw all of the FEMA camp videos. Do I think there are some in place. Damn right. It's gonna get ugly before it's all over, that much I do know.

JK

[Zen]

I think something that a lot of people miss is what exactly Martial Law would mean. Most people think about it in a Red Dawn context that, one day, we'd wake up and find a column of Bradley's outside and a Green Boy yanking us out of our house "for the good of the Nation". All Martial Law, and Despotism at that, really means is that you go about your daily life but, at the will of "The Gubment", you can be removed from Society immediately. No trial, jury or lawyer. Patriot Act anyone? Martial Law would entail the Military enforcing or at least "assisting" civilian Police forces - hmmm, can anyone tell me what's going on in San Bernadino country right now with the DUI checkpoints? What? There's Marine Corp MP's alongside the CHP? The difference between Freedom and Despotism is not that great, the difference is but the consequences. In a free society, if you break a law, you are held publicly, tried publicly and NEVER DETAINED INDEFINITELY. Again, Patriot Act anyone? One of the ways that the Bill of Rights is being skirted is with the Article 2 War Powers Clause. The Patriot Act can be used once someone is identified as a "Terrorist" to bring them under the heading of "Enemy Combatant". At that point, everything's game because you are now no different than a Nazi, Vietcong or a Red Coat - you're the enemy. Where it gets really fun is what's going to come out of this Homegrown Terrorist Act - take a read and tell me if you don't believe "Political Dissidents" will now be able to be labeled "Terrorists" which, hey, here we go again.

We are not in a Free Society anymore, a Free Society does not have cameras on every street corner who's patents are owned by Lockheed Martin; beware the Military Industrial Complex indeed. A Free Society does not have a man convicted of a petty $200 Tax Stamp Crime (I remember another war that had a lot to do with Tax Stamps about 231 years ago) and then to have his wife and son shot to death by Federal Assassins. Nor does it have a Church filled with women and children burned to death. A Free Society does not have Men in Black Ninja Suits who have the full authority to enter you home dynamically and make you disappear.

So, what's the point here? Absolutely, use your own freakin' common sense and figure out where the line between caution and B.S. lies. However, with that common sense, tie into the fact that we have an absolutely Despotic Government who sees NO limits on its power and authority who would just as well see 3,000 more of us die from their actions than see one ounce of power taken away from them. So....FEMA Camps for Political Dissidents who won't play by the rules - I don't see why not. Martial Law - We are ALREADY IN Martial Law, just the light beginning phases of it right now. There is not going to be some huge instigating invasion of U.S. Military Forces for the Patriots to say "Okay, here it is - Now we take back our Country!" Nope, it's going to continue to be a steady increasing frog in a pot that we've seen since the Nation was purchase by The Federal Reserve in 1913. Draw a line in the sand and let no man pass.

[Poopeyhead]

I think we can Relax everyone. It's not as bad as it seems. FEMA is in charge. I personally believe the government has a plan for martial law and all that, but that it would be physically impossible to implement nationwide. And if FEMA is the agency in charge of the camps then we should all breathe a sigh of relief. They can't manage a hurricane let alone martial law.

Here's a provocative thought for those who believe were all going to be rounded up and that the guberment is building concentration camps. How bad is martial law really?

Before you all flame me, think of this. There are multiple and competing ideologies with preppers. Here are some instances:

We prepare for the worst.
We speculate on what the worst will be
We dialogue and pontificate with other preppers.
We have supplies and "other stuff" to help us survive
We are passionate about our country, our rights and freedoms.

We also have jobs
We have families and kids
We have property and houses
We don't want anarchy in the streets (most of us at least)

So if the shtf, what would you all expect from the local state and federal authorities. Thats a tough question. Because what you want may only be possible through suspension of some rights, curfews etc. If you want an every man for themselves and no suspension of rights and freedoms, then rent mad max. If you want some type of order and security for your family...well what is YOUR great idea to provide that to 300 million people?

Alot of times I hear people bitching that the gubment is inept and should prepare for things. When they do it's a giant conspiracy. Now i'm as skeptical as the next guy. But really, an issue as large as nationwide civil unrest....what would YOU do to keep order and peace? What comfort and safety level would you want for your family.

To be honest, the thought of suspending any of my rights or freedoms for an instant scares the crap outta me. It's a tough issue. If we approach it intellectually it seems there are some things that are beyond control. Better to prepare for how to live in a newly defined system (hide in plain sight, organize etc.), than to say it will or will not happen.

So when I ask the question about what would you do. I am seriously looking for intelligent and reasonable answers. Thoughts anyone??


my .02

Poopeyhead

[merc40]

I think we can Relax everyone. It's not as bad as it seems. FEMA is in charge. I personally believe the government has a plan for martial law and all that, but that it would be physically impossible to implement nationwide. And if FEMA is the agency in charge of the camps then we should all breathe a sigh of relief. They can't manage a hurricane let alone martial law.

I agree with you 100%. The couldn't find a paper bag in a paper bag factory....

[Zen]

FEMA is a government agency sidled with bureaucracy, just like every other one. THAT fact should scare the crap out of you IF they are the agency in charge of civilian detention. You see their ineptness as a sign that it won't go well, I see it as a sign that IT WON'T GO WELL. You willing to pack up, leave your weapons behind and sit in a FEMA Camp that takes 5 days to get water?

My plan to provide safety and security? GET THE GOVERNMENT THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY! It's a National Mindset where everyone expects the Federals to take care of any problem. They are supposed to protect us from invasion, ensure we have a Republican Form of Government in every State and mediate between States -THAT'S IT. So now, the Federal Government has completely shat on our Constitution that LIMITS their power, they have taken away our 2nd Amendment rights where Semi-Automatic weapons ONLY are allowed and even THAT'S threatened, they have sold our Currency and Financing System over to a consortium of Private Banks who are engineering its collapse as we speak, they have stolen money directly from my labor and given it over to those banks - NOW YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT I HAVE THAT'S BETTER FOR "SAFETY" THAN THEM? FREEDOM ISN'T SAFE!

So, am I surprised they've instituted plans for when we finally say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH and to put us back in our subservient places? Hell no I'm not surprised but THAT'S THE POINT! Are we really going to sit here and watch it all burn while thinking to ourselves "Well, this doesn't surprise me"? Is that your plan? Or is your plan going along with whatever they say and hope that some asshole finally gets into power that is either 1) Not a blithering idiot 2) Is not a Despot 3) Actually loves America more than Money 4) Doesn't just want to watch the world burn.

I gotta tell you man, I don't see a whole lot of history in the last century to make me think that's gonna happen. The little bit of history that I do see, I also see a government bullet putting an end to it. The men in power DO NOT have your or your families interests in mind, make no mistake about it.

So what it comes down to is you can either fight tooth and nail every step of the way the Government doing what the Government does which is NOTHING MORE THAN PROTECTING ITS POWER or you can just hope for the best and see where that takes you. A lot of Patriots died for Liberty in the Colonies, a lot of Patriots died in the South to try to protect the States' Rights, a lot of Patriots have shed a lot of blood to prevent what this Government's become and some more might have to be shed.

So where that ends us up at, when the SHTF, is what you're preparing FOR? Are you simply trying to keep your head low and avoid the biggest cannonballs or are you preparing to fight for the restitution of God Given Liberty?

[Poopeyhead]

So again we've redefined the problem. But what is your solution. 300 million people to govern and keep safe. What do you do. What plan could they make right now on paper that you would approve of. If the bangers and criminals and anarchists and doomsdayers all freak out after a national tragedy. What do you do?

How would you keep a semblance of order out of chaos? Your solution is to fight the government. What about all the sheeple that try to destroy society after say a nuke goes off. What about the chaos in society that is caused by civilians not the government. What would be your plan if you were POTUS to keep the country from anarchy? I really want a solid answer. Not just that the government is going to kill us. What about the bad element that will reign down on law abiding citizens.

Should the government just say...oh well it's every person for themselves? Or should they try to keep the peace. I'm not saying we should roll over and give up our rights and our country. But what is REASONABLE to sacrifice to keep the country together. I am not one of those who want to see the whole thing burn down and be rebuilt. That's a romantic notion but involves so much loss of life and property that you have to wonder what (whoever is left) is gained for what is lost. It seems a little over the top. But thats just my humble opinion

Poopeyhead

[Zen]

You say the problem has been redefined, I say it has been identified. Look historically when "the union must be saved" at what happens. What happens when this "Voluntary Union" no longer exists because some States (Who have the complete and total right no less) decide that it is in their best interests to reestablish their sovereignty? We get the desecration of Constitutional RIGHTS we saw after the war of Northern Aggression.

So yes, I'm agreeing with you that what the Government is doing makes sense - If an institution is as all powerful as the Federal Government is threatened, it will most definitely do what is necessary to protect its power. What I find almost laughable is the notion that these actions are being taken to "Protect" the People from vandals. Show me where that has been the case in History - show me where the further institution of power, oppression and control has actually been for the "protection" of the people.

Now, what would be reasonable and TRULY meant to protect the people? Repeal the National Firearms Act, Gun Control Act, Omnibus Crime Control Act and the Hughes Amendment of the Firearms Owners Protection Act. Allow the PEOPLE to protect themselves instead of relying on a supranational entity. Institute a Nationwide Castle Doctrine. End the Federal Reserve and the Income Tax thus allowing people to KEEP their money and PROVIDE FOR THEMSELVES. This is all very closely tied in to what I've been talking about the whole time. The mindset of whether we want to Feds to PROVIDE for us or whether WE will do it for ourselves. Will people die? Will property be destroyed? YES - Freedom isn't safe. That's the decision to be made, do you want Freedom and alongside it the RISK that's involved, or despotism and the ILLUSION of safety. Make no mistake about it - No matter what size the Government is, no matter how much money they take from you, no matter how large THEIR military is (because it's most certainly not OUR military), you will never be completely safe. Isn't that why you're on a survivalist website anyway? So why make the case that the Federal Government can or WOULD do a damn thing to protect you?

Instituting Martial Law is NEVER about "Protecting" the citizenry. Military men are trained to kill and destroy. That's what a military is for. Martial Law brings combat to the streets of a "Free Nation" under the guise of "protection". So, the above is what I consider Reasonable and Prudent to assure the continuation of both Liberty and Safety - Give people back the RIGHT to provide both for themselves.

[Zen]

"I'm not saying we should roll over and give up our rights and our country. But what is REASONABLE to sacrifice to keep the country together" - That's exactly the last sentiment of a formerly free man. What is "Reasonable". What is "Common Sense Restrictions". What is "best for the children". Those are exactly the ideas that abdicate responsibility away from People and onto The Government. If you're saying that we shouldn't roll over and give up our rights then DON'T. Not for what you're told is "reasonable" or "Common sense". For NOTHING. Where's the line in the sand? Do you really want to look for safety from a Government in a crisis that's generated by that same Government? Forgive me but that matches the definition of insanity in my book. You trusted the Government in the beginning and they ballsed it up pretty good so then you want to trust them to fix it. Doing the same thing and expecting different results isn't it?

The reacquisition of Liberty is not smooth, safe or easy. It does not allow people to continue the easy lives of already free people. That lifestyle is exactly what causes freedom to be taken away, the laissez faire style by which people treat liberty.

This website is for when the SHTF. That's subjective to each of us to determine what constitutes that situation. To me, the largest and most prevalent threat to my ability to live as the Free Man I am is The Government. That poop hitting the rotors? That's when the Government decides its had enough of my little "Freedoms" and decides those are ALL antiquated ideas, instead of just picking and choosing like they do now. I don't know what you're interested in being able to survive, whether its the scary Terrorists coming over, the Mexicans deciding that they've had enough with gringos in their former land, Zombies - whatever. Make no mistake about it though - the most prevalent and dangerous threat is most definitely a Domestic Enemy, not a Foreign One.

[Poopeyhead]

You make alot of good points. Our debate is framed differently though. You see things how they are and want wholesale change. thats a noble notion. However, I am looking at the issue as to what the situation is currently. Your opearting in a theoretical environment to solve the problem, I'm in the "this is what we have now, how do we maneuver through this" mentality. To get to your solution would be a revoution and is not likely to happen. I mean really, do you believe all of the solutions you provided are ever going to come about. Not likely. So whether we like it or not, this is the system we have now.

It's great to pontificate about what the country should be, but it isnt. And so you have to find a realistic solution to the issues that are realistic. I don't trust the government to solve my issues and I think "they" have caused alot of problems. However, I place the blame squarely on the citizens of the US for the shape and direction of the country. We the people have allowed every single step the government has taken over the years. Unfortunately, thats how our FF designed it. That being said, the issues I raised are still the major question.

When the law is broken, do you call the cops. We all do. So to say that the government as an institution is not the body responsible for security of the country is wrong. When major lawlessness happens and a group of bangers are beating on your grandmothers door trying to break in...do you put your faith in the local government to send law enforcement to protect her? So we do put our faith to a certain degree into our government, no matter what we ideologically think of it.

So again I ask, what could the "current" government that exists do as a plan for shtf that we would approve of?



Poopster

[Poopeyhead]

BTW I'm diggin the debate.

[Zen]

There's a couple of confusions in your argument. Firstly, when I am threatened I do not call the cops. I "force a stop to the threat" first. That is what saves my life. Not the cops. Cops are there to clean up the mess and investigate if necessary. They are NOT legally bound to provide my safety. Now, the real problem with that is Cops should not be The Federal Government. 10th Amendment, State's Rights. Cops are local. However, look at the MASSIVE amount of Federal Money flowing into local PD's. The Surplus Military equipment they get. M4's, Body Armor, APC's, Helicopters - the cops have been bought by our Federal Government. They are supposed to be 2 distinct entities. So your supposition that the cop argument applies is invalid. It's as invalid as any Officer deputized by a local Police Department and acting on Federal Orders. Not how it works.

So yes, you're talking about the responsibility lying with the PEOPLE for the condition of this Nation and, so too, lies the ability to FIX it. What I'm talking about is just that. The People FIXING the problems they've created. Now, that falls back into the definition of insanity except that, you're correct, a full scale every American revolution won't happen. Didn't happen the first time and won't happen again. However, those Americans who DIDN'T cause these problems, who fought them legally and sometimes extralegally, they will be the ones with the ability to fix it. The Financial Crisis is steadily bringing this about. I'm not saying that it's going to be a guaranteed good thing either but, you want to talk about reality, the reality is that when people have lost everything and have nothing to lose, THEY LOSE IT (Thanks Celente).

So, real world. You wanted to know what I would accept as actions by the Federal Government that would help to actually PROTECT the People in times of widespread lawlessness. I gave you my answer. Give us back our RIGHTS to defend ourselves and therefore the ABILITY to defend ourselves. 2nd Amendment doesn't apply to hunting, semi-autos etc. It applies so that we have the same basic weaponry that the Infantrymen carries. REPEAL THE NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT AND ALL SUBSEQUENT UNCONSTITUTIONAL GUN CONTROL. A Federal Castle Doctrine will ensure people are ABLE to use those weapons they attained. Repeal the THEFT OF OUR MONEY ACT (Federal Reserve Act) so that we have the MEANS to provide for our defense. Yes, that is what I would accept as legitimate efforts by the Federal Government for my protection. Is that going to happen? Not yet, no. Again, they will not willingly abdicate power - we must take it.

This is not pontification or theoretical debate - I am dead serious about these steps being necessary and the ONLY actions that are legitimately for our Protection. ANYTHING besides that, ANYTHING that restricts my Freedoms is NOT for my Protection and is not legitimate.

So let's look at where we're at in the real world and how do we live through it. That begs the question this thread started off on and applies directly to my previous thoughts that are in NO way theoretical. Let's work off the assumption that the Government does NOT have your best interests at heart. Whether you can agree with that or not, let's work off the assumption. So, Soldiers come to your house and inform you that you're no longer allowed to live there and that, for your safety, you will come with them to a "Safety and National Security Ensurement Center". What do you do at that point? Is that a "reasonable" and "common sense" request for your Government to make of you? Is that a "reasonable" infringement on your liberties for The Government to tell you that your Privately Owned Property is no longer under your control, your freedom of travel is no longer valid, your 2nd Amendment and Freedom of Protection is no longer valid, your Freedom of Speech is no longer valid, Your freedom against unreasonable search and seizure is no longer valid, Your Freedom against arrest without warrant or probable cause is no longer valid, YOUR FREEDOM ITSELF is no longer valid? Is that reasonable since it's for "The Nation's Best Interests"? What the hell Nation is it if we all decide to go along? That, my friend, is a very real world scenario and something that you need to decide how you'll act. When the SHTF and the Government enacts its plans for CONTROL, NOT protection, that is a key moment for your survival. Are YOU responsible for it or is The Government? Freedom taken is rarely given back.