Gas VS Diesel and fuel availability in SHTF scenario

[wallew]

OK, this is NOT a thread attacking either fuel source or saying one fuel source as fuel is better than the other.

The point of this thread is in reading through ALL the transportation threads, it appears most here are like most of the rest of the population.

By that I mean, you drive one or more gas vehicles. Even if you are storing fuel, you've got ONE BIG PROBLEM. Running out of fuel and then attempting to find more.

The reason I bring this up is from second hand experience. A buddy of mine bugged out of Houston when Rita was going to hit. He was in traffic as almost all four million people in the greater Houston area fled north or west, mainly north. Even with ALL roads 'routed' north, he discovered a few of things.

1 - he drove his M109 deuce and half diesel truck and was one of the few that was on the road driving diesel rigs.

2 - gas powered vehicles ran out of fuel all over the place, as the average speed was about 10 mph for hours on end. They were pushed into the treeline to get them out of the flow of traffic.

3 - when my buddy decided to stop for a break, he pulled into a truck stop. There was a four hour wait in line for gas. jumping two curbs, he pulled right up to the vacant diesel pumps, topped his tanks off and went in and paid cash. he said loads of folks waiting in line were mad at him for 'cutting' in line. he told them if they could use diesel they too could jump the curbs and pull right up. shut them all up

4 - he said EVERYTHING was stripped from the stores. the store owners said they literally had nothing to sell BUT fuel and that gas was going fast and when it was gone, it was gone. he asked about the diesel levels in the tanks and was told they had plenty.

SO, this thread is about fuel availability and why GAS is such a bad choice. EVERYBODY drives a gas powered car. OK, not everybody. Lets just say 90% or more of people drive gas powered vehicles (including almost ALL LEO). And they have a problem when they run out and will always beg, borrow or steal gas (maybe commandeer is a better word) to keep themselves and their families moving. If your mode of transportation is ONLY diesel, you have a much higher chance of availability than gas. That's just a plain fact. Plus resupply of fuel and everything else in all those roadside places will be nonexistant, as the truckers roll home and stay there until SHTF blows over.

So, if you are driving a gasser, even if you have enough fuel to get where you are going, you are assuming that everyone else will ignore you when you roll merrily by them. You are also assuming you will not be stuck in a huge traffic jam. Both of these are very bad assumptions. My buddy had people jump up on his running board, begging for fuel. Some demanded he share his fuel. As soon as he said, "Well sure, how much DIESEL do you need?" they would hop off complaining. They never noticed the handgun in his offside hand.

Hey, you can be everybody else. OR you can be prepared for this SHFT scenario by NOT being the same as everyone else. DIESEL IS NOT BEING LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. And your ability to resupply your diesel stock is much easier than resupplying your gas stocks. EVERYONE will be snapping up gas. Not many of us will be using diesel. Plus, if you are driving a military spec vehicle and can use almost ANYTHING for fuel? You can drain oil and tranny fluid and axle fluid out of abandoned vehicles if things REALLY get bad and run on that. You won't run very well, but YOU WILL RUN.

And that's where I'm at. And that's the truth.

[alpmco]

I can agree with your line of thinking.
Additionally I think after all the gas has been pilfered, post SHTF, there will still be usable diesel in trucks, buses and places you would not suspect. Can a diesel engine run on jet fuel? How difficult to tank up at the Frito Lay plant?

[hitech_hick]

Fuel oil is nothing more than un-taxed (road tax anyway) diesel. You also have tractors, construction equipment, semi' s and semi trailers all running on diesel. Most commercial generators run an diesel, not to mention how well it stores. Hell, all of this talk makes me want to buy one...


hick

[BobS]

Couple of additional comments here guys....

1. Home heating oil is a filtered #1 (thinner winter blend) diesel, not #2. See item #2.

2. The various types of fuel are defined here- http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/tbldefs/pet_cons_prim_tbldef2.asp

3. Test on actual use of oil and fuel blending in the military- http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0PAI/is_6_35/ai_110459244/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

4. In the US, ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel) is replacing conventional #2 diesel for "on road" use. This fuel WILL damage the 6.2L GM v8 diesel, Hercules LD/LDT Multifuel, Cummins NHC 250, any GM 2 stroke (53 series, 71 series, 92 series) or any civilian diesel engine built prior to the 2007 Model Year, due to the lower lubricity of the fuel (lower sulfur causes extreme fuel pump wear and premature failure, fuel injector failure, and other problems). You MUST us a fuel lubrcity enhancer (such as a biodiesel derivative-NOT WVO!!!! The enhancer MUST be transesterfied oil!!!).

Best regards,

Bob

[soberups]

I drive a 2006 VW Jetta TDI turbodiesel. It can get over 40 MPG, and I have 45 gallons of diesel in 5 gal cans already set aside for it. If the SHTF I can go at least 1500 miles before I have to worry about finding or buying any fuel. I will NOT be waiting 4 hrs in line for gas like everyone else. Diesel is the only way to go, you can run #2 diesel, #1 diesel, kerosene, off-road diesel/heating oil, biodiesel or JP5 jet fuel in a pinch.

[Alredneck]

This is one of the main reasons I bought my deuce, the multifuel is awesome, right now im running used motor oil, atf, gas mix in mine I picked up out of the used motor oil bin at our post self help shop. I got over 270 gals for free. I just pre filter it with a 20 micron filter then run it through a 5 micron filter then into the tank it goes. I keep extra fuel filters on hand just incase. It runs no problem with 100% filitered trash fuel, it runs a lil quieter than before also. If I had to I can run straight gas in it or a combination of other fuels. Its truely a survival vehicle. And between 6-8 mpg I need all the free fuel I can get! ;)

As for lubricity in the older diesels you can try pooring a bit of good ATF with your next fill up, its supposed to be good and clean the injectors on the mechanical injected motors.

Also there are several other mechanical injected diesels that can benefit by running used motor oil or a percentage of with regular diesel. Do a search on some of the forums and folks can tell you from exprience what they run in their everyday rigs. Just make sure if you do you filter it before putting it in the tank. My filter and pump setup cost me about $200 and it works great and can filter about 1000 gallons before having to change the filters out. My 20micron filters are 80cents each plus shipping. and the 5micron ones are about 7 bucks a piece. Good luck and hope this helps some out there! If not save your oil and atf, I would gladly take it off your hands! :)

[BobS]

This is one of the main reasons I bought my deuce, the multifuel is awesome, right now im running used motor oil, atf, gas mix in mine I picked up out of the used motor oil bin at our post self help shop. I got over 270 gals for free. I just pre filter it with a 20 micron filter then run it through a 5 micron filter then into the tank it goes. I keep extra fuel filters on hand just incase. It runs no problem with 100% filitered trash fuel, it runs a lil quieter than before also. If I had to I can run straight gas in it or a combination of other fuels. Its truely a survival vehicle. And between 6-8 mpg I need all the free fuel I can get! ;)

As for lubricity in the older diesels you can try pooring a bit of good ATF with your next fill up, its supposed to be good and clean the injectors on the mechanical injected motors.

Also there are several other mechanical injected diesels that can benefit by running used motor oil or a percentage of with regular diesel. Do a search on some of the forums and folks can tell you from exprience what they run in their everyday rigs. Just make sure if you do you filter it before putting it in the tank. My filter and pump setup cost me about $200 and it works great and can filter about 1000 gallons before having to change the filters out. My 20micron filters are 80cents each plus shipping. and the 5micron ones are about 7 bucks a piece. Good luck and hope this helps some out there! If not save your oil and atf, I would gladly take it off your hands! :)
ATF Mercron, Dexron, and Dexron 2 should NOT be used long term (but the synthetics, such as Mopar ATF+3. +4, etc...is ok) as the Dexron and Mercron heavy metal additives cause a buildup and galling of the injection system under constant use. Not a good idea. For emergency use (less than 10,000 miles) ok...but no longer. 10K and you will start galling injector tips and pump pistons. As a sidebar, no, you cannot filter out the additives.

Motor oil is an acceptable for long term use as long as it is filtered as you stated. Good setup, you should be congratulated.

Best regards,

Bob

[wallew]

Bob,
I was worried about the ULSD. Would adding some clean (cheap new) motor oil resolve the lubricity problem? If so, how much for every 10 gallons of ULSD?

My M1009 only has 63k miles on it. I'd like it to last another 20+ years if at all possible as I only put about 2k miles a year on it. I do have a spare 6.2L 'in the can', but I would like to rebuild it and THEN put it back in the can so I have an engine ready to go.

Unless I find a nice Suburban that's diesel that needs a motor. We'll see. My last Suburban was a really nice one and I sold it, my deuce and my Harley around the same time. I had grown tired of owning 'stuff' and sold off, gave away or threw out TONS of just 'stuff' I had collected for more than thirty years. Cleaned out about half my basement. Made my wife really happy. Except for not having that second vehicle in our family. Even my 80 year old parents gave me grief. So I bought the M1009 with the M101 trailer. It's been a good compromise.

Then I got the M1031 for less than $3k on GovLiq. It has less than 14k but needs some front sheetmetal. Boyce in Utah is in the process of moving and told me they just THREW OUT TONS of front sheetmetal and I was one week too late. BUMMER. But they said they will start collecting it again when the get to their new location and to give them a call then and they would find me what I needed for a fair price. But I've got a buddy of mine who's offering me the $3k I paid PLUS a Crown Vic Interceptor with high miles (222k), but in good shape otherwise and he takes GOOD care of his vehicles. He owns three M1009's, an M109 and has wanted an M1031 for quite some time.

The Crown Vic would make a good driver, holds four people and tons of luggage for any long trip we would want to take and I can get dogs into the rear MUCH easier than into the rear of my Blazer when we go to the vet for check ups. So, I don't know. I LIKE the M1031, it drives really nice. It has the 10KW genny and the compressor in it. But for now, I'm just 'percolating' my options. I've always wanted a CVI. I guess I'm turning into my Dad, who's driven regular Crown Vics for more than 20 years. He has one right now, I think it's his third one. He swears by them. And his is the civilian model.

[Ltlabner]

What is the volitility of diesel compared to gas? Is it as dangerously flameable?

[wnn]

What is the volitility of diesel compared to gas? Is it as dangerously flameable?
its more stable than gasoline ,you can literally drop a match to it with out losing your eyebrows. infact its harder to ignite than gasoline , it wont blow up like gasoline even if the vehicle catches fire , Im not sure if it burns hotter than gasoline tho BobS would know tho ,but its hydroscopic.

[mitunnelrat]

its more stable than gasoline ,you can literally drop a match to it with out losing your eyebrows. infact its harder to ignite than gasoline , it wont blow up like gasoline even if the vehicle catches fire , Im not sure if it burns hotter than gasoline tho BobS would know tho ,but its hydroscopic.

I seem to remember hearing that's why the military runs JP-8 in its vehicles. It had the least possibility of exploding if hit.

[BobS]

Right...as an aside, in the Navy for many years in surface ships, a can of fuel was kept in the engineering spaces where smoking was allowed to put out the cigarette butts. No joke.

Diesel fuel (as well as it's derivetives) has a much higher flash temperature and vapor pressure than gasoline-this is why it does not burn in a spark ingition gasoline engine or create fumes (evaporate) nearly as quickly as gasonline-simply put....it takes a lot more energy to ignite diesel fuel.

Best regards,

Bob

ADDENDUM: The biggest issue with diesel is that "bugs" like to grow in it. You will need to use an algecide if storing it for any great length of time (the amount of time depends on the blend of fuel).

[BobS]

One more point to consider, the effort, equipment, and energy to make your own biodiesel by transesterfication is far less (as well as less critical processes and techniques) than to distill your own alcohol fuel.

Less thermal signature for a shorter period of time means less "revenoors" snooping around. :P

(Gee, can ya'll tell I am from NC originally?)

Best regards,

Bob

[wallew]

Bob,
How much oil needs to be added to USLD to make an older truck run without damage?

[BobS]

Bob,
How much oil needs to be added to USLD to make an older truck run without damage?

Sorry, thought I answered, Mes Culpa!

1 qt of new (or truely re-refined will save a few cents per quart) per 10 gal is fine for the LD/LDT. For others like the 6.2, slightly less is needed, but for convenience 1 quart is not too much, depending on the condition of the valve seals and rings in the engine. Check your leakdown percentage-more than 20 percent and you will pass smoke.

Also, watch if you need to meet any local emissions standards-more added motor oil will cause you to exceed most "visible smoke" densitometer laws. That is why I suggest you (or anyone with an older diesel) use a biodiesel lubricity enhancer-it will not smoke. Available at most truck stops today for just this reason.

Best as always,

Bob

[wnn]

BobS is the "offroad diesel" the same as the ULSD? also whats your thoughts on running propane?
thanks
Pete

Funny how if I put something in someones tank to screw up their engine I get jailed,not the oil companies tho..these pricks need to be shot.

[BobS]

BobS is the "offroad diesel" the same as the ULSD? also whats your thoughts on running propane?
thanks
Pete

Funny how if I put something in someones tank to screw up their engine I get jailed,not the oil companies tho..these pricks need to be shot.

ULSD is NOT the same as offroad diesel, AT THIS TIME. The reason is the amount of sulfur allowed in the fuel. Also, offroad diesel is taxed at a different rate (lower) and home heating oil is even lower in taxes-the basic fuel part is similar-sulfue content is the difference. Red dye is also used in offroad diesel to "catch" someone evading taxes (no judgement on my part either way- IRS does what it will, same with the states individual taxes agencies) and the penalties are heavy. Do NOT get caught on the highway with red tinted diesel fuel at a checkpoint. Eventually (IIRC, 2010), all diesel will be low sulfur.

That being said, assuming no checkpoints to deal with, offroad would be an acceptable emergency substitute for USLD in any diesel, EXCEPT the 2007 and newer diesel engines. The sulfur contaminates and destroys the catalytic convertor emissions systems on the trucks and cars using them ( not all have the cats at this time-all will by model year 2010) and you would be looking at about $1500.00 parts cost to fix the issue. The problem with your oil company statement is that it is NOT the oil companies that are at fault....this one lays directly at the feet of the congresscritters that listen to the "environmentalists" that hate diesel engines. The ULSD fuel costs a bit more to refine to get the sulfur level below the law's requirements.

As far as propane, think of it this way-the problem of propane in a diesel is also one of a lack of lubricity-the propane does not lubricate the exhaust valve seats to keep them from eroding under loading. Yes, propane will add a small bit of power, depending on air density (altitude), but it is one of those short lived items (meaning that to gain appreciable power, you have to consume a LOT of it and that it greatly shortens the overall life expectancy of the engine) that are going to cause some problems at some point in the future. To put this into perspective, yes, I know some independent truckers use a propane tank on their OTR trucks to improve the power levels crossing the western mountains, but there are no corporate users that allow it. Like the old joke goes:

Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

...or...

Pay me now, or pay me lmore later.

Best regards,

Bob

[wnn]

Thank You BobS as usual I learned something again.

[BobS]

Thank You BobS as usual I learned something again.

You are quite welcome, glad I could help a bit...

Best as always,

Bob

[soberups]

A lot of the "off road" diesel that is out there is nothing more than normal, run-of-the-mill ULSD...identical in every way to what is available at a gas station....except that it has been dyed red to indicate that no road taxes have been paid on it.

The best lubricity additive out there for ULSD...is ordinary biodiesel. A 5% biodiesel blend (B5) will fully restore the lubricity that is lost through the process of removing the sulfur.

I run straight 100% biodiesel in my VW Jetta TDI. It is made here in Oregon and it makes my exhaust smell like french fries. It is a little more expensive and costs me about 3 MPG due to its slightly lower energy content, but at 40 MPG I could care less. I am supporting a local farmer and a local business instead of sending my money to an Arab terrorist. Pure biodiesel will gel at low temperatures however, so in the winter I cut back to a 20% (B20) blend and have had no issues with this regimen for the last 2 years and 28,000 miles.

[BobS]

A bit of rea lworld test data on adding used engine oil to the fuel in a diesel engine vehicle...

This information comes from a report I found during some research at my work on EPA emissions of this (the testing was conducted by TACOM for the military):

The "Hows and Whys"- http://www.drum.army.mil/garrison/pw/pdf/Environmental/Compliance/PollutePrevent/REUTILIZATION%20OF%20USED%20ENGINE%20OIL%20BY%20TH E%20ARMY-6%20(2).pdf

(note particularly slide 18 of 21- it states specifically:

CONTINUOUS USE OF BLENDED FUEL NOT RECOMMENDED) This is due to observed ash and combustion buildups on the ports and valves-see the images in this presentation showing the buildups. This is a CRITICAL item NOT to overlook!!

The Oil-CAT system the military uses:
http://www.clarustechnologies.com/manufacturing_services/oilcat/index.html

Note particularly the diagram at the bottom of this page. For those interested I can design up a similar system using COTS parts for a lot less money than buying one of these new..... :)

Best regards,

Bob

[07hemi4me]

During our run of Hurricanes her in Florida, Lines for gas were around the block, but the Diesel pumps were open, I would pull right up and fill the tank...

The look on the peoples faces when I did this was Priceless...

[LUCKYSTRIKE]

well think about it this way, a big source of fuel is abandoned vehicles, and i kno truckers (18 wheelers) are def not gonna keep haulin the load to Dallas, so plenty of diesel from those, plus everyone would crowd the gas station for gasoline, not diesel, plenty left for you. also i think it would be a bit more emp proof because diesel runs off compression not sparking gas/air mixture.

;]

[BigV]

I was thinking the same thing.

At the trucking company I work for there is probably 1,000 gallons of fuel sitting in my yard. We even have a transfer pump on site.

I think I need a diesel suburban.

[soberups]

There is no substitute for gasoline, and 95% of the vehicles on the road use it. In a SHTF scenario, if you need it you WILL be waiting in line for it.

A diesel vehicle will also run on biodiesel, JetA, kerosene or off-road diesel. As has been stated before, diesel pumps are frequently seperate from the gas pumps and you can drive right up to them without waiting in line.

School buses, trains and construction equipment all run on diesel, and all are potential fuel sources to anyone with a diesel vehicle, a siphon hose and a 5-gallon can.

Probably the most dangerous place to be when the SHTF is in a gas line. Tempers are short, and you are basically immobilized with all of your supplies in the back of your rig. It is a choke point thru which all gas-powered vehicles are forced to pass. Food and water in the immediate area will quickly become scarce, and chaos will quickly ensue.

Fuel is life if SHTF. Dont count on being able to buy any after the fact. What you have stockpiled may be all you have to work with. I consider fuel to be at least as important as guns, ammo and water. Without mobility, you become a stationary target unable to obtain any additional resources.