What type BOV, what Camo BOV? [Archive] - When SHTF

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madmyk

08-14-2008, 03:55 PM

While I am trying to get by with what I have (2wd C1500), and get it as ready as possible for any BO situation, I can't help but wonder....

I have considered Camo of the general hunting/military variety.
I have considered Urban Camo (see thread http://whenshtf.com/showthread.php?t=2189 ).
I have considered an actual surplus military vehicle.
I have considered the advantages of...say... a 4wd SUV vs. an AWD wagon vs. 2wd econo truck vs. well you get the idea...
I have considered Diesel vs. Gas.

I have come to NO solid conclusion.
Given the (my) situation of expecting to need to travel 4 to 6 hundred miles (we're talking EOTWAWKI and permanent relocation bug out), and expecting broken down everything (no fuel to be had/highways clogged/EOTW), I keep pondering a couple of things...

Considering the actual trip to get there...
Will urban camo draw to much attention from the stranded? or will it allow for "ease of passage" as people will see it as..."there goes someone to help fix things, let them pass"? Will a milsurp vehicle do the same? Is plain jane regular old chevy truck not looking like much of anything gonna be the best? Will same truck with "real" camo paint me as "one of those survival nuts, he must have supplies, lets get him..."?

I know prolong sustainability where I am in NOT an option. Leaving is. 4WD to get around the broken masses? Plain jane, so one can be "out of sight,out of mind"?

soberups

08-14-2008, 04:49 PM

Just my humble opinion;
The best BOV is one that is (a) RELIABLE (b) that you can afford to stockpile 1000 miles worth of fuel for and (c) that is capable of hauling/towing whatever you need to bring along.

I think that camo, big tires, roll bars and the whole "road warrior" setup is a waste of money that could otherwise be applied towards maintainence and fuel.

If SHTF, you need to assume that there isnt going to be any gas. What you have stockpiled is all you can count on having. A nondescript, plain-jane minivan or pickup towing a trailer full of fuel cans is going a lot further than a jacked-up bad boy 4x4 monster truck that is out of gas by the side of the road with all your worldly posessions in it.

My BOV's are a Dodge Caravan with a utility trailer, and a VW Jetta diesel car that gets 40 mpg. I have enough fuel stored up right now to drive them both over 1000 miles without stopping at a gas station. No, they aren't "bad ass" but they are well maintained, have good tires, and will reliably get me, my family, and our stuff where we need to go.

Disclaimer; I also own a 3/4 ton 4x4 truck with big tires, winch etc. It gets about 7mpg. If SHTF, I'm siphoning all 35 gallons out of it and leaving it behind.

BobS

08-14-2008, 07:19 PM

Security is invisibility.

Generally speaking.

Now, to specifics, I am in the middle of writing a book about Vehicle Mobility (as evidenced my cut and pastes in the thread on tires here) and many of these questions are far larger than you are thinking, I would imagine.

For example, you mention an ex-military vehicle. Are you thinking about an M35 series 2.5Ton 6x6 vehicle, or a M1009 Blazer (or perhaps a Dodge M880 pickup or Chevy M1008 pickup)? Have you considered parts availability now as well as in the "future conflict"? Have you thought about how much it costs to maintain a vehicle in storage until it's needed, or is it going to be used now and "kept up" and maintained?

What kind of load are you going to place in the vehicle? Not "how much" but rather "WHAT KIND" of "stuff"? Have you decided WHERE you are going to run to when required? Have you considered what time of year you are going to run?

All these questions must be answered to form any kind of realistic plan for transportation. Just saying "gonna' git me a 4x4 and paint sum camo on it" is going to also give you a BIG target on your back.

Let me know if you want more info on the details of all these kinds of decisions and potential options. Be aware, there will be a LOT of people that will argue with my comment, and as I stated in my "tire" thread...let them. My recommendations come from over 30 years of designing and building vehicles around the world-both civilian and military.

The important thing to remember is that YOU have to make the decisions YOUR FAMILY are going to live or die from. No one else's needs are exactly like yours, and most people are happy to spend other people's money without considering what you need (not want, but NEED) and they don't have to live with the aftermath of a bad decision.

Best regards,

Bob

madmyk

08-14-2008, 11:16 PM

Bob,
What I am specifically considering is a CUCV 1010 as a hunting/camping/BOV. I would think, given a "normal" paint job it could pass for a Utility (as in phone/power/etc) vehicle. It seems it would cover the bases for off road ability w/o being over the top, runs on diesel (read bio-d, waste oil, cut motor oil), and being a "run of the mill" Chevy 6.2L parts should be reasonable to find.
As for what kind of load, well that will depend greatly on time. Will it be 5+ years before I need to bug out....if so, I should have my BOL ready and stocked, if not, it will be hauling everything it can. As with what time of year, well those are variable that I have no control over at this point.
As for the where, well that one is the only "given", and that is only given IF I can make that long of a journey in a SHTF aftermath.
For the "gonna' git me a 4x4 and paint sum camo on it", there will be camo paint for it for AFTER i get there. I think 4WD will be VERY beneficial for my trek, if not a need. I am not thinking "monster truck" in the typical Southern way of thinking.

All that said, I agree with your thoughts on invisibility. Yet, I fully expect to be "stuck" dealing with/avoiding large groups of stranded folks. How best to achieve invisibility while transversing such a gauntlet is where my main (current) concern lies. There is such a thing as "hiding in plain sight" and that is where my Urban Camo idea is leading me. I completely believe that a big camo 4x4 with gas cans hanging off and a big load in the back is asking for trouble where I must travel. Big camo 4x4 once I am there is a TOTALLY different story. I also think that ANY vehicle still moving will be somewhat of a target for the ill prepared groups stranded on their way to ?????, but which vehicle is less of a target, The semi invisible "plain old truck", the semi offical "utility truck", or the "totally" offical military truck, or the "bubba truck"? I feel previous 2 have a better invisibility rating, while the latter have a bigger intimidation rating. How big of a mob does it take to overcome the "fear" of the .mil or necks? How small of a mob does it take to overcome the "fear" of joe public?
I know all of these things will vary. There isn't really ONE answer.

soberups,
I think you gotta a good plan with one exception (at least I wouldn't be able to pull it off), the trailer full of fuel cans. That is just SCREAMING "GET HIM!!!!"....unless the wife is driving the van and you are riding in the trailer with a .50cal machine gun swivelling from side to side...:eek:
The thought did just occur to me, maybe it is an enclosed trailer...out of sight, out of mind....

madmyk

08-14-2008, 11:24 PM

I am thinking this http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e7/dammitsolly/shared/CUCV1010.jpg
painted white with some "business" graphics, couple of ladders, amber flashers.....

soberups

08-14-2008, 11:52 PM

soberups,
I think you gotta a good plan with one exception (at least I wouldn't be able to pull it off), the trailer full of fuel cans. That is just SCREAMING "GET HIM!!!!"....unless the wife is driving the van and you are riding in the trailer with a .50cal machine gun swivelling from side to side...:eek:
The thought did just occur to me, maybe it is an enclosed trailer...out of sight, out of mind....
My trailer is a nondescript, beat-up looking little utility trailer. My fuel cans will be covered with a tarp, and there will be assorted camping gear and household goods on top of that. At first glance, I'm going to look like your average homeowner fleeing the disaster in a minivan. I will blend in with everybody else. I like the idea of hiding in plain sight and staying small.

wnn

08-15-2008, 01:25 AM

I am thinking this http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e7/dammitsolly/shared/CUCV1010.jpg
painted white with some "business" graphics, couple of ladders, amber flashers.....
Nice rig! but from what ive read on here, hopefully the need arises only from a hurricane.etc.. if not & you paint something like that white ,you might as well armour it cause someones gonna take a shot at ya I'm not trying to be a smartass but seriously that looks un/military..
think what would you not suspect,maybe paint something like that as a critter control or pest control truck..maybe even a few signs warning of reptiles/venomous snakes,ultimately its only your desicion,& just my thoughts..good luck bud
Pete

BobS

08-15-2008, 01:36 AM

OK, this is going to take a while....let me start with the basics.

article (c) by RW (Bob) Sheaves, catNET, Incorporated, 2008

START-Section #17- To CAMO or not to CAMO, that is the question.

Camouflage is green, brown and black paint, right?

Nope...let's look at what the word camoflage really means to the military. In a nutshell, camouflage is used to "break up the outline of personel and materials to hinder the ememy's accurate targeting of the force". Notice this doesn't call out colors, patterns, or textures. The reason for this is psychological. Disruptive patterning takes many forms and is totally dependent on the backround of the material in this discussion-vehicles. A US Army "Woodland" pattern paint job on a vehicle or a MARPAT painjob in the desert simply does not work. Why? It is not the color's fault, because, in the proper backround, Woodland or MARPAT works exceptionally well. It is the choice of the end user that has failed, by not determining his/her needs ahead of time.

http://rbaz.tripod.com/pics/uniform_test/thumbnails/400x300/t2_marpat_15ft_none.JPEG

CAPTION: This image is an example of the USMC specific MARPAT (MARine PATtern) camo at a distance of 15 feet. (Hint: this AIN'T a vehicle)

http://www.alfaheaven.com/Military%20Section/M880s/M880GIFS/MD56RrLft.gif

CAPTION: This image is an example of the US Army Woodland camo at a distance of 15 feet.

http://www.alfaheaven.com/Military%20Section/Truck-Thumbnails/MC129.gif

CAPTION: M1008 in Desert Tan.

Civilian Use CAMO

Unfortunately, we are, as a group, not in the military. Many people collect mil-spec vehicles and have fun with the hobby (just take a look at"

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/

...for how crazy we all are). The general populace, derisively termed "sheeple" though, think of a guy or gal that drives around in a freshly painted CUCV as unbalanced (at best) or dangerous, at worst. They never make the connection that this is a hobby like any other. If you drive around in any kind of fatigues in a CUCV, and most sheeple will now assume you are military. Even law enforcement make the same assumptions as well as common soldiers in National Guard units and some poorly equipped line units. See:

http://www.lonestar-mvpa.org/events/2005/05_Katrina.htm

....for one man's experiences during a real emergency, using his personal M35 to help the victims of the Katrina hurricane.

This does NOT mean I endorse what this man did during a SHTF scenario. Remember the first line of this book....

"MOBILITY is invisibility"

Civilians attempting to secure their family's future by preparing a vehicle for travel to a remote site are faced with many contradictory facets of preperation. Decisions about the individual facets tend to snowball on the prepper. Make a mistake in the optimum configuration and the error will compound in unknowable ways, due to the inability to account for and prepare for ALL conditions.

CHOICE for the preperations flow from major issues to the associated details. In the choice of camouflage for a vehicle, you must decide several things:

1. Will the vehicle be used prior for normal "running around" or will it be stored for later use?
2. What terrain are you going to use the vehicle to cover?
3. Who are you going to carry inside the vehicle or on the vehicle?
4. What are you going to carry in or on the vehicle?
5. How much can you afford?

http://www.alfaheaven.com/Military%20Section/M880s/M880GIFS/MD170RrLft.gif

http://www.alfaheaven.com/Military%20Section/M880s/M880GIFS/MD56RrLft.gif

CAPTION: Which one is the military M880 Dodge truck? (Hint: they BOTH are!)

END- Section #17

I will continue this tomorrow....LOL...it's late here and I have an appointment with a dyno cell at 4:30am.

Best regards,

Bob

wy0mn

08-15-2008, 06:56 AM

yugoshooter

08-15-2008, 09:14 AM

BobS

08-15-2008, 02:07 PM

article (c) by RW (Bob) Sheaves, catNET, Incorporated, 2008

START-Section #17B- To CAMO or not to CAMO, that is the question.

The previous questions are in no particular order, other than they must be considered BEFORE ever contemplating choosing, purchasing, or modifying any vehicle intended to move your family's life from point "A" to point "B". As shown by the 2 images of the M880 Dodge pickups. CAMO, in the right environment, can be very effective. The issue becomes how to choose what environmental factors exist in your "world" and how do you adapt to them.

In this Q&A section, the word "environment" means far more than just the weather and landscape surrounding you and the road less travelled to your destination. Environment also means everything that affects the effort to GET from point "A" to point "B". From fuel, to breakdowns, to eating, to getting rid of the eating "residue" (OK guys, let's keep it clean now...), all these factors must be considered as an integrated system that is fragile and a breakdown at any point will possibly cause you serious damage. The result is called "dying".

It may seem incongruous that how you provide camouflage for your efforts may be affected by what you are carrying.....but the answer is simple:

HOW BIG A VOLUME ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE???

Are you trying to carry the a full military base camp with you?

http://www.weatherhaven.com/assets/gfx/images/head_images/military_mecc.jpg

CAPTION: Weatherhaven MECC Military expandable shelter mounted to a USMC MK48 HEMTT tactical truck, under IR-absorptive camo netting, somewhere in the Mid-East.

...or are you a minimalist?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3271/2543541487_f1b4b379a9.jpg
http://a4.vox.com/6a00ccff934a97d75600cd974172344cd5-320pi

CAPTION: Bicycle touring equipment used for camping as a single or with a family.

The size, volume, and weight of what you want to take with you (notice I did not say "NEED") is going to determine whether the MK48 or the bicycle is going to suffice.

_____________________________

1. Will the vehicle be used prior for normal "running around" or will it be stored for later use?

Storage

Storage can mean many things-from simply not using a vehicle for a month, over the winter, 6 months, a year, or even indefinately longer. Like any mechanical device, once the vehicle is built, loaded the first time with fuel, coolant, other fluids and parts, it begins to deteriorate. Ever try to chase down all the leaks on an engine that has been sitting without running for a few years? Rust inside the engine cylinders is the least of the problems. Galvanic corrosion (see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

http://www.engineersedge.com/galvanic_capatability.htm

.... for a description of how this happens) is always an issue when 2 dissimilar metals are in contact with one another. As the oil film drains and the crankshaft and main bearings come into physical contact, this corrosion starts. This leads to pitting of the "dissolved" metal and permanent damage to the parts. This of this as sand that "grows" between to metal surfaces.

Another form of corrosion happens when an "oxidizer" (the chemical supplier of oxygen to a chemical reaction) is in contact directly, or drawn between two or more similar metals that do not have a high enough electrical (or "battery") chemical action between them to form a galvanic corrosion. This process of oxidation usually forms (in the case of ferric materials) "rust".

There are other chemicals that promote material failure, but for the purposes of this discussion, I will limit the futher description to these 2:

Moisture (H20)

Atmosphere (O2)

The military has developed a regimen specifically for storage of materials, detailed in:

https://www-tdps.tacom.army.mil/phst/SPI/05/67/47.pdf

(Note: you may recieve a security error from this site-it is not a problem. Microsoft does not play well with the TAACOM security systems.)

This represents one extreme end of the storage issue-long term indefinate storage. If you can afford to prepare a vehicle in this manner, more power to you. Most people can't afford to have such a large chunk of funding tied up doing nothing except slowly deteriorating.

The other end of the spectrum is to use your vehicle daily as your "today" transportation".

This, obviously, involves expenses which are highly variable, depending on, but not limited to:

Age of the vehicle

Fuel and other "consumable product" consumption (wiper blades, light bulbs, grease and oil are also counted here-any "stuff" that must be serviced and replaced on a schedule)

Insurance (and what type of insurance you carry)

Field repair parts (spare coolant, oil, filters, hoses, etc that you should be carrying in the vehicle as "breakdown insurance")

Service Tools

...and MOST importantly:

YOUR KNOWLEDGE

The point of these comments are that you are going to spend money on a vehicle, regardless of purpose. The most economical vehicle will be one that THAT WILL PERFORM THE DUTIES REQUIRED for the expected life expectancy of the vehicle, with the least capital expendeture.

Cars and trucks used for life's needs are not an investment. You ARE going to spend money without a hope of recovering the cash value. Any other expectation is simply lying to yourself. You are not going to increase the life expectancy of a vehicle by not using it.

Operational life expectancy

The automotive industry has long set targets for the expected life expectency of a vehicle. Billions of testing, research, and development dollars have been spent by all manufacturers to set corporate standards that are used internally as a guideline in vehicle design and program definition.

These requirements are almost NEVER given out to the public, simply due to the litigious nature of people today. Expectations are such in the general public (it doesn't matter if you are in the US, the UK, or BFE) are for the vehicle to be an appliance that works for years with no attention to the mechanicals, the electricals, or the maintenance for the vehicle. Amazingly to me, in over 30 years of experience, this attitude has simply gotten worse...more and more expectations and less and less knowledge of the real world.

Lets face reality here.....

ROT*-There is NO vehicle in the world that is manufactured today, or in the past, that is foolproof. There is no vehicle in the world that will not breakdown. There is no vehicle in the world that is "perfect".

Only a fool believes that there is.

*ROT-If you don't believe this, look up the manufacturer that had the most recalls (in total number of vehicles) for the 2007 model year on the NHTSA website. GM? Ford? Chrysler?

Hint: it's Toyota. So much for the American perceptions about the industructable "Toyota quality"!

The "Zen of Maintenance"

Maintenance of the vehicle begins at the point (or area, if you are big-butted like me...LOL) of contact with the seat.

ROT*-Any vehicle will communicate to you, all it's problems, when it is not happy with what you are making it do, and when it needs attention.

*ROT- Most cars are as temperamental, emphasis on the "-mental" part, and they will let you know when you screw up. Hopefully by not killing you.

Learn what your vehicle is telling you when you drive it. Feel the road surface through the stering wheel. Understand the traction clues you hear and feel. Learn what the manufacturer's requirements are for your vehicle.

This is not a quick and dirty process, as every vehicle is different and something as simple as changing the tread pattern of the tires will make the hints and clues behave differently in every vehicle. Try this experiment sometime-replace the driving tires you use on the street with a set of cleated snow tires and drive them in the rain, through a deep puddle. Then switch back to the normal tires you use and feel the difference.

Maintenace is the act of taking care of the vehicle BEFORE it fails. Get a FACTORY manual for the car. Sure these books are expensive-but many cars have them on CD/DVD. The common Chilton's or Haynes manufals are simply not good enough to perform all (emphasis on the word "ALL") the maintenance and repairs possible on your vehicle. Take a course at the local community college or technical school. I don't care how much you think you know (no matter who you are)-you simply don't know enough for a SHTF scenario....EVER.

People's perceptions and visibility

Perceptions and preconceived ideas are the failure of so many people everywhere. I have noticed the tendency of people to use the slang term "camo" to mean something that is not what has been discussed here. Too bad-those that will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

So much of mobility depends on thought and REASON. Failing to accept that small fact will, as it has for millenia, kill more people than all other causes, combined. Ask yourself:

"What do people expect to see in a given situation?"

Answer: Whatever is not "odd" or different from what anyone anyone else has.

This answer provides a pointer of how my first statements regarding invisibility are true and how the bastardization of the term "camouflage" (using the slang term "camo", referring to a military paint job on a vehicle) can be a warning that someone has no idea what they are really talking about and are just pushing their opinions as fact. Their opinions MAY (emphasis on the word "MAY") be true for them and their personal situation, but that specifically means they may NOT be applicable to you and YOUR situation. Case in point, dark paint colors...

Imagine you are in the desert with a pickup painted a nice, clean dark blue GM metallic color. A pretty truck? Absolutely (I am a big fan of GM dark Blue metallic colors)! Now picture this vehicle from 1000 yards away, looking through the scope mounted on a Barrett .50 BMG. Not so concealling now, is it? A flat tan with a darker green and brown "splotches" to break up the regular outline of the truck makes more sense now, doesn't it?

Let's take another scenario... in Phoenix, trying to "get out of Dodge" (or would that be called "getting out of Phoenix"?...LOL) in your Dodge pickup....

You have a pickup roller painted with a flat (non-reflective) grey/white epoxy paint (like an Interlux boat hull paint). Now imagine looking through that same scope-are you a target? Possibly, BUT less of a target, due to the "rough and cheap" appearance, giving the impression you have less of value with you. Once you get out of Phoenix, the rough texture of the paint would let you piss on the sand beside the road and make a sandy mud to wipe over the sides and roof of the vehicle

True camouflage means blending into the "sheeple" and HAVING THE MEANS TO DO SO.

_____________________________

2. What terrain are you going to use the vehicle to cover?

Reference documents:

http://www2.ing.unipi.it/~d5973/VDS_TERM.PDF Latest term definitions.

http://www.eng-tips.com/faqs.cfm?fid=480 Term definitions - suspensions.
http://drluchini.com/john/tech/ITEC24a25a.ppt A .PPT file on tire rolling resistance.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/pdfs/hicev/hitp01.pdf SAE J1263 Road load HP determination from Coast Down technique.

Highways and byways-What the heck do I mean?

"On road and offroad are the only things I gotta' understand, right?" Nope-all vehicles are not created equally, and what you drive will determine what you can or cannot do and where you can or cannot travel. Are you going to drive your Camry across the open desert? Hint: there are a lot more traps in the desert than flat, smooth sand to drive on. Anyone that has "chased" racecars as a pitcrew for the Parker offroad race can tell you that. They get to see all KINDS of terrain in the "desert" that the average person has no concept of. Terrain that will kill the uninitated very, VERY quickly.

Are you going to drive your British Ferret Scout car or even better, your M113 APC, across town, unimpeded by the police for lunch with your wife at work tomorrow? I don't think so, Buckey.

Onroad or offroad travel definitions-(For the purposes of this discussion, you need to understand my meaning when I use the industry generalized definitions of these words):

On-highway: Hard surfaced cement, no greater grade than 6%

On-road: Hard surfaced asphalt, no greater grade than 16%

Off-road: Gravel or dirt surfaced, general travel path or intended, unimproved road, a maximum grade up to 50%

Cross-country: Unimproved track, any grade up to 100%

The better part of valor

Plan you route, and plan a backup route, and plan a backup route to that, and plan a backup route to that, and plan a backup.......

A bit overplayed in the last statement, I will agree. However, the concept is valid. Learn mapreading, navigating, and what your vehicle will do in certain circumstances.

As I am writing this section, I am in the state of Oregon, in the US, at a customer's location. I have only been to Oregon one other time in my life, but my business requires me to travel extensively around the world to work on various civilian and military projects. One of the first things I do when I arrive in a new territory is to look up the weather history for a given area to determine the probable environmental conditions I will face, should I need to "leave in a hurry".

Next I look up terrain maps for the area and adjoining states to get an overview of the terrain I would be faced with to have to go anywhere under the worst conditions. Finally, I contact local offroad clubs to find out where they "go play", to find out where I can and cannot consider traveling in a true SHTF situation.

For instance, I know of a trail from Portland that runs to Salem (and beyond) that is not only secluded, but impassible to any vehicle without a 4x4 low range and is one of the least used roads in Oregon, according to the local DNR reps and clubs, due to the terrain. Those that don't have a vehicle capable of taking the "road less traveled" would be more at risk, due to a lack of preperation and vehicular capability. No one can tell what the "real" situation during a given situation will be, so having options open is an advantage, at the cost of preparing for those options.

_____________________________

3. Who are you going to carry inside the vehicle or on the vehicle?

Obviously, yourself....but who else are you responsible for? Granny? Aunt June? Cousin Bubba?

What happens if you have a breakdown you simply cannot repair by the side of the road or trail? Are you going to shoot, skin, then turn these people into jerky? They may be an additional source of protien, but is it worth the cost in fuel (for the vehicle AND to feed them) to cart them around?

The point here is to get those that are travelling with you into similar vehicles, trained to a similar level, and split the total load between multiple vehicles. Look at a military convoy use and makeup in Vietnam or the Mid-East.....

You will almost NEVER see a convoy of one vehicle. Shared responsibility and shared risk. Don't be a mall-ninja. You can't do it all and be a hero....and live to tell about it.

_____________________________

4. What are you going to carry in or on the vehicle?

This question comes back to concept of the volume of "stuff" you are going to carry. Bags, tools, and parts, people, fuel, food. Will it all fit into the vehicle without overloading it?

The manufacturers set a GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) for a reason- exceed this value and you WILL start breaking parts (little things like frames, axle gousing, driveshafts, blowing wheels, etc.). The rating is also calculated for the On-highway service cycle for the vehicle at a 20% duty cycle. The only question remains as to when it will happen. Feel like gambling with your family's lives?

ROT*- for OFF-ROAD travel, reduce the payload rating by one half! (Yes, by 50%)

*ROT- This is a tradeoff where you have to make a decision on how closely you follow this rule, no one else can tell you what to do.Failure to follow this rule will kill you as surely as a .22LR to the brain, but not nearly as predictably as to when.

_____________________________

5. How much can you afford?

"Speed costs money-How fast do you want to go?"

OK, everyone has heard the above comment, that has hung around cars for any length of time. The principle definately applies to this discussion. I cannot even begin to guess how much money you can afford to use for a vehicle. No matter what you do, it all comes down to VALUE.

ROT*- The more you spend, to become more specialized, the more the overall value DECREASES for the overall project.

*ROT- This means don't even TRY to spend so much that you feel invincible-ain't gonna happen, and you will just make yourself even poorer and someone else will always be faster (i.e. have more stuff or can do more) than you are.
_____________________________

END- Section #17B

Completed-finally.

soberups

08-15-2008, 04:46 PM

Coondawg47

08-16-2008, 03:43 AM

And all I want is a air cooled Baja bug with a skid-plate & winch... lets see, ummm, goes virtually anywhere on minimal gas, no radiator to get shot out or punctured, engine is actually in the rear!
Might pop for some Yokohamas!

I have one. It is one of best off road vehicles I have ever driven. I have 14 inches of clearance and can go just about anywhere an ATV can go, as those are the trails I usually off road on. It also gets 30 MPG on road and about 20 off road (depending on terrain). It has a 16 gal tank and I can easily store 16 more on the vehicle without taking up cargo space. 32 gals gives me a highway range of 960 miles and an off road range of 640 miles. I have driven this car extensively off road and have a complete kit of recovery tools, which I have never had to use, except for the ATV I pulled out of the mud on the side of a stock tank. Ruined my tow strap but the guy paid me for it. There are allot of videos on You Tube, look under Baja bug. If anyone wants to buy one "Samba" is a good place to start looking. I do see ads in my local paper once and awhile for them. Most run arount 2,500 to 3,000 dollars. Spare parts are also cheap.

hitech_hick

08-17-2008, 05:53 PM

One problem I see with a camoed mil surp truck is if we have a full blown teotwaki is the desperate people thinking it is a active duty Mil truck and attacking it because they think it has food or weapons on board. There are going to be a lot of people that watched Red dawn that think they could use those tactics to gain what they need. A lot will die thinking that but most will be so desperate that they wouldn't care at that point so they come after your camo milsurp truck.

+1 on that....I fail to see any benefit to be gained from spray-painting camo on a vehicle. You can still see it. It serves no purpose other than to draw unwanted attention to yourself.

Blending in means staying small and looking just like everybody else. The nail that sticks up will always be the first one to get the hammer. Reliabilty and a fuel stockpile for whatever vehicle you choose are all that matters.

x2

Security through obscurity is the way to go. As far as paint goes, nothing beats a dark factory paint color. Dark greens are good, if the paint is a little faded it is even better. As far as all out camo, you are just asking for trouble. Another thing that you might want to consider in a BOV is having as little glass as possible. For the glass that you do have I would recommend polycarbonate. It is light, and impact resistant (can stop a .22 or bird shot at a distance) and will not shatter.

hick

BobS

08-17-2008, 07:56 PM

I am thinking this http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e7/dammitsolly/shared/CUCV1010.jpg
painted white with some "business" graphics, couple of ladders, amber flashers.....

Ok, madmyk, now that I have completed the backround to the comments presented here, you will understand what I am referring to. As a bit of backround on myself-I was the lead design engineer on the GM CUCV program and I am familiar with "the good, the bad, and the ugly" of those vehicles.

The vehicle you have chosen (that M1010) would be a good family vehicle within several limits. On the positive side:

1. Higher GVWR- the military vehicle is rated far higher for offroad travel that the civilian version.

2. Any of the Chevys that were supplied for the CUCV program were built with the GM 6.2 diesel-a very reliable design within it's limits (discussed further in the "cons" section below)-and an automatic transmission (the TH400 3 speed) that will last longer than the later automatic transmissions (the 700R4's and the 4L series of electronic transmissions).

3. The vehicle is painted a CARC (Chemical Agent Resistive Coating-an epoxy similar to Dupont Imron) paint in a non-camouflage pattern, leading to a more civilian "look").

4. The cargo bed (you do realize that particular vehicle was an ambulance, not a maintenance truck, right?) is sealed and has the HVAC (Heating, Ventilation, and Airconditioning) installed for comfort during vehicle operation.

5. The structure of that body (the ambulance body-not the truck) is simple mill shape aluminum, so parts are available to repair and replace any of them from today's commercial sources (I can get you a couple of suppliers if you would need them).

6. The truck itself is the most prolific vehicle in North America-more Chevy and GMC trucks from 1973 through 1991 were sold than any other vehicle of any type. Ford claimed the "title" of best selling vehicle only because they were all sold under the "Ford" nameplate. Chevy and GMC were considered 2 different nameplates.

Spare parts are the cheapest for this chassis, more commonly available, and the most easily serviced of any vehicle made, ever.

Now, the "cons" of that particular truck:

1. Paint-I would paint the bumpers front and rear to match the body-tan.

2. remove, but do not discard, the front and rear military tow hooks and lift eyes.

3. Get rid of the aluminum wheels-cast aluminum wheels cannot be repaired in the field-use stock HMMWV beadlock wheels and the proper spacers, along with a 37x12.5x17 Goodyear or Michilen XZL type tire (see the tire thread I mentioned earlier for the details about the tires)-the truck has already has a higher ride height over stock.

4. Replace the roof spotlamp with a tan painted one from Unity (the original manufacturer for us at GM) available online from any distributor of the products.

5. Replace the 6.2 Stanadyne fuel pump originally installed with a rebuilt pump that has been sleeved and has a tool steel piston (the stock pumps are only good for around 125,000 miles before failure-aluminum piston in an aluminum bore-they wear out fast and cannot be replaced. Several companies have developed the conversion to steel pistons and more durable sleeves).

6. Add 2 outboard 16 gal fuel tanks and a rear tank (41gal) from a Suburban. Since diesel fuel does not explode, outside the frame rail tanks are quite acceptable. Plus you can find most of the "stuff" in a junkyard or aftermarket parts catalog. The only issue would be- make sure you hook up the switchover valves properly-make sure you use mechanical valves for the fuel control, NOT OEM civilian electrical valves.

7. Add a MECO hydraulic parking brake valve to the front and rear brake circuits. (This works by "locking" the hydraulic brakes fluid. To release the MECO, you simply release the lever or, in the case of the electrical valve, push on the brake pedal.) This provides a backup to the original rear emergency brakes used for parking.

8.NEVER exceed the load rating!!! The vehicle is designed to the ragged edge for capacity from the beginning. This was the cause of MANY failures in military service.

I would leave all the other stuff (like the beacon lights) OFF the truck-same with any lettering. Take a look through the Unicat website for possible ladders, sand ladders (something entirely different than a "climbing ladder" if you are in the desert or will encounter heavy mud conditions)- search for "expedition vehicle Unicat" in Google or other search engine.

Best regards,

Bob

gunbuilder69

08-17-2008, 10:55 PM

BobS

08-17-2008, 11:24 PM

Was that the ambulance or a "contact truck"/commo veh.? or possibly met.veh....just asking, I think I see a good future use here. I would prefer the ambulance body for sleeping the fam. and storage sections under the litters, but If I remember correctly the commo and met trucks had more NBC capabilities,and was lighter....am I wrong?,and where can the the 880 dodge/10series cucv series be had for cheap?

That one was an ambulance version-note the big sign frame on the side (where the white and red cross goes). The communications body had a different clip arraingment at the top. Also, the C3I bodies had varying levels of EMP protection built in to the body-the level depends on the year built and the specific customer the body was built for. Several alphabet agencies got a far higher level of EMP protection than the DoD vehicles. These trucks were usually sent to foriegn posts however and few have been returned to the US.

Best regards,

Bob

BobS

08-17-2008, 11:33 PM

OOPS, forgot to answer you second question...sorry.

The Dodge M880 was an even bigger fiasco than the CUCV was from GM. The M880 front axle was a 3/4 ton Dana 44 while the GM used the Dana60 1 ton. Also, the Dodge had a 12vdc electrical system standard, with the 24vdc an addon kit, along with the blackout lamps and some other stuff, which rarely was installed correctly. Overall, the 880s are neat toys, but I would not recommend them unless you had no other choice.

The electrical system on the CUCV (M1008/1009) was a bastardized DuVac (this was the manufacturer's name) 12/24vdc mess. I would also convert the CUCV over to a full 12 volt electrical system and remove the 24vdc stuff-keep the dual alternators, but run them in parallel for 400amp service of 12vdc.

As far as availability of either type of vehicle, watch craigslist, ebay, and steelsoldiers.com classified. If you feel ambitious, yoiu can still purchase CUCVs (not m880's from what I have seen lately) from govliquidation.com (which replaced DRMO). These truck will not generally be in drivable condition, AND you have to go through the SF97 process, but it is the cheapest way to start. Personally I would also look at alfaheaven.com, altho they are NOT cheap.

It all depends on how much you want to spend.

Best regards,

Bob

Catman

08-19-2008, 12:01 AM

Greetings all,

I'm new to the site, and I'll just throw my two cents in here. If you feel like taking shots at me, fire at will!

Most of my friends, myself included (always be your best friend), live in urban and sub-urban areas.

We've figured that in the immediate aftermath of whatever *event* occurs that signals TEOTAWKI, there will be a period of some semblance of civilization. It isn't going to be *POW* 30,000 BC.

We've purchased late model Crown Vics from state auctions. They're already fairly heavy duty and have been well maintained. A little shopping around, and voila, you've got yourself a passable law enforcement vehicle. The dark blue or black ones are nice as frequently these seem to be the choice for Fed agencies. Many times the rear windows have dark tint (prisoner transport) which can serve to hide people from casual observation.

The bonus is no one freaks when they see a weapon in what appears to be a LE vehicle.

I AM IN NO WAY SUGGESTING THAT PEOPLE IMPERSONATE LAW ENFORCEMENT!

This is just our contingency plan.

We've also secured a former department of forestry fire pumper based on a Chevy C-20. It's a 4X4 and will be hauling the equipment needed to extract the Crown Vics if and when they get stuck if we are forced to go off road in route to our eventual relocation site. The fire pumper's pump and water tank have been removed. In their place a slightly larger tank holding extra fuel has been installed to compensate for the C-20's poor mileage.

We think that these vehicles will allow us to exit our current areas with a minimum of fuss.

The one thing you have to remember is that EVERYONE has to look the part. That's going to be the hard thing to get under control with the dang teenage kids.

wnn

08-19-2008, 12:30 AM

welcome Catman , the idea of your crown vics may work in some areas but things to remember ,if its a hurricane area you will have debris on the roads you may not get threw(limbs,water etc.) & & if its a Gov caused catastrophy you driving around in a car like that your screwed remember Katrina ,ya may want to invest in body armour, not trying to be a smartass just sayin..plus you have to think about alotta people didnt/dont prep & they will be lookin for the "GOV" to help them out,so you may be bringing more attention/problems to yourself than you can justify...another thing to look into since your runnin Crownvics depending on year you have either a AOD,AODE.or 4r70w trans, beef em up the ones LE had arent that strong (lotsa room to beef em up)..

Pete

Alredneck

08-19-2008, 01:22 AM

As for finding cucv's, M880s, and other govt vehicles from all different agencies you can try gsaauctions.gov , steelsoldiers classifeds or just join ( its free ) and do a post, governmentliquidation.com and also govdeals.com I got my deuce off of govtliquidation and it can be a wait for the govt title to come in but they have lots of good equipment and surplus, but prices aint getting any cheaper. GSA is more for state authority and fire dept trucks but they go a lil cheaper most the time.

Catman

08-19-2008, 08:13 PM

Crownvics depending on year you have either a AOD,AODE.or 4r70w trans, beef em up the ones LE had arent that strong (lotsa room to beef em up)..

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the neighborly welcome. I'll have to look into the tranny issue. They're all former CHP vehicles, two were supervisors cars. One of the other guys is into the cop car world, so it is his baileywick.

Yes, you are correct, it might work for us, and I think that is the crux of this whole issue. BOVs must be suited to the user and environment. I don't think there will ever be an all purpose vehicle that everyone should have.

I'm outside a major metro area in California. We don't have snow or ice, or the prospects of a hurricane or other severe weather. If it rains 2 inches in an hour the news stations are interrupting broadcasts with flash flood watches.
Flash floods are nothing to sneeze at, but it gives you an idea of what severe weather is like out here in Cali.

After watching government response to Andrew, Katrina, and the recent tornadoes that have plagued the MidWest, we all think we may have picked what will work for us. There seem to be alot of roadblocks and barricades that go up to keep people under control, but in the background of the news casts emergency, military, and police vehicles seem to roll through these road blocks unimpeded.

That's what we're looking for. Just a way outside of a contained area. Once there, it is a journey of a couple of hundred miles. There have been multiple routes planned so we can avoid the most likely areas where we might encounter any difficulties.

BobS

08-19-2008, 08:37 PM

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the neighborly welcome. I'll have to look into the tranny issue. They're all former CHP vehicles, two were supervisors cars. One of the other guys is into the cop car world, so it is his baileywick.

Yes, you are correct, it might work for us, and I think that is the crux of this whole issue. BOVs must be suited to the user and environment. I don't think there will ever be an all purpose vehicle that everyone should have.

I'm outside a major metro area in California. We don't have snow or ice, or the prospects of a hurricane or other severe weather. If it rains 2 inches in an hour the news stations are interrupting broadcasts with flash flood watches.
Flash floods are nothing to sneeze at, but it gives you an idea of what severe weather is like out here in Cali.

After watching government response to Andrew, Katrina, and the recent tornadoes that have plagued the MidWest, we all think we may have picked what will work for us. There seem to be alot of roadblocks and barricades that go up to keep people under control, but in the background of the news casts emergency, military, and police vehicles seem to roll through these road blocks unimpeded.

That's what we're looking for. Just a way outside of a contained area. Once there, it is a journey of a couple of hundred miles. There have been multiple routes planned so we can avoid the most likely areas where we might encounter any difficulties.
Hi Catman,

Have you determined load per person and "cubage" (the physical volume of the stuff you will be carrying in the vehicle somewhere)? One of the issues with the Crown Vic (and Fords in general) was that, in original condition, the top of the fuel tank was the floor of the trunk. Are all your vehicles equipped with the optional truck floor from Ford for the Interceptor package? Something else you may consider is lighting (NOT meaning emergency lighting, but rather headlamp and tailight lighting.). For example, in darkness, have you considered the taillight glow visibility? Many police cars have been built with taillamp and interior blackout provisions. Have you cars had this option installed?

Another issue is vehicular spare parts-do you all have the needed parts, tools, and most importantly, knowledge to perform field expedient repairs?

I'm not critizing, just asking what you have thought about and what may have been accidently overlooked....

Best regards,

Bob

mr slow

08-19-2008, 11:44 PM

I'm going to drive my motorhome like I'm on vacation. I'm going to take my time and even vist the sites. I'm going to pretend I have no clue on what is happening. If a road is blocked I will just camp out until its cleared by others or by me. No one is going to try and take my motorhome from me or mess with my group.We will decide this is a great place to die and take on the intruders until there is no one left.Ever one has to die sooner or later, taking out some bad guys is a good way to go out. Sooner or later your going to have to make a stand.I hide from no one.

cwillis

08-20-2008, 10:06 AM

BobS

08-20-2008, 12:19 PM

i have an 84 diesel suburban. i think the old NA chevy diesels are the way to go. . .

they take just about anything for fuel (bio, WVO, kerosene, diesel)

and are reliable as hell. this week all my belts came off the engine and i didnt even notice until 3-5 trips after it cause the batts werent charged.

how far can a gas vehicle go with no alternator?
There is no answer to your question, as you stated it. It's not really a matter of "how far", it is a matter of "how long". That being said, it all depends on whether you use your lights, heater fan, a/c, brake lights, interior lights, radio, or any other electrical power drawing device, plus it depends on the battery (or in the case of a GM diesel specifically, batteries)- what their condition is, what the state of charge is, and a lot of other conditions. Also depends on the engine, if it is computer controlled, has electronic ignition system (in the case of a gasoline engine) and a host of other items.

Can you be more specific?

Best regards,

Bob

cwillis

08-24-2008, 08:29 AM

There is no answer to your question, as you stated it. It's not really a matter of "how far", it is a matter of "how long". That being said, it all depends on whether you use your lights, heater fan, a/c, brake lights, interior lights, radio, or any other electrical power drawing device, plus it depends on the battery (or in the case of a GM diesel specifically, batteries)- what their condition is, what the state of charge is, and a lot of other conditions. Also depends on the engine, if it is computer controlled, has electronic ignition system (in the case of a gasoline engine) and a host of other items.

Can you be more specific?

Best regards,

Bob

ya bob, my point was that with the 6.2, if the batteries die, the truck still runs. (if you replace the fuel cutoff solenoid with a manual bypass.)

BobS

08-24-2008, 04:37 PM

ya bob, my point was that with the 6.2, if the batteries die, the truck still runs. (if you replace the fuel cutoff solenoid with a manual bypass.)
OK, I understand now. Yes, I agree-but that is a non-standard modification, don't forget. The 6.5T's with the electrical pump cannot do that-which is why I also agree on using the 6.2 mechanical engine-it's more reliable and less complex. The only mod I would perform (in addition to what you stated) is to lower the compression ratio to 18:1 from the original 21:1 by changing pistons.

Best regards,

Bob

Coondawg47

08-27-2008, 03:31 PM

Here is a picture of my bug.

yugoshooter

08-28-2008, 07:18 AM

I just wanted to point out that at the DNC Police are specifically looking for fake or surplus Police, ambulance and military vehicles because they think they are the most likely to be used as a terrorist weapon. So you guys that think because you have one of those vehicles you will just get waved through better think again.

wallew

09-03-2008, 01:46 AM

Bob,
While you were the engineer on the CUCV project, have you actually OWNED any of them?

I've currently got an M1009 and an M1031 parked in my driveway. I've owned but sold my M35.

As Bob has said, the 73 - 91 GM trucks were the most prolific made trucks out there and there are TONS of spare parts. Both in salvage yards, aftermarket dealers (LMC Trukcs comes to mind) and you would be surprised how many diesel pickup/Blazers are sitting behind some guy's house who just 'gave up' on his diesel truck some time ago. So parts should not be a problem.

Being a member of the MVCC here in Colorado, I know lots of MV owners. We have several different locations to go to, depending on what's happening where. And it's NOT like we are ignorant or unaware of what's going on around us.

The biggest problem is if you have a convoy of 15 - 20 trucks, you can only go as fast as the slowest guy in the convoy. That can mean you will roll as slow as 35 mph. Generally with an M1009 in front and one in the rear. We even have our 'end of convoy' signs on the last truck.

My M1031 Contact Maintenance truck has a 10KW genny and a compressor with TONS of storage spage for all my tools and lots of other equipment. My M1009 Blazer can run people or just stuff. Plus I have an M101 3/4 ton trailer as well.

Yes they are camo. Yes I WEAR CAMO. All sorts. This weekend we will be at a show at what used to be Lowry AFB here in Denver. I think I'll be wearing my Marpat. And with my vest loaded and an AKM slung over my shoulder. It's for all the people who have questions about what we do and why. I am 'reenacting' a buddy of mine who spent two years in the sand. He carried an AKM first and then swapped it for an AMD65. Being contract armorer for SpecFor gives you great latitude to carry whatever you want. I always carry a pix of him in uniform carrying the AKM to explain to the folks WHY I am wearing what I am wearing. We went to gunsmithing school together and he took the job I turned down. He's twenty years younger than I am and I just could not have handled the 140 degrees in the shade thing at 55.

If you go with any of the larger trucks (deuce and a half or larger), you will need to have your own supply of spare parts. But the CUCV's parts are literally everywhere.

As Bob said, you can swap the rear fuel tank out for a 40 gal tank from a Suburban (LMC Truck sells them for like $135 plus s&h) and they will drop right in, though you will need to have longer strap bolts, as the 40 gal tank is a little 'deeper' than the 27 gal tank that comes on the Blazer. On the M1008 and all it's variants, you will be dealing with saddle tanks, though I've seen a pretty good idea. It was on an M1031 and they had the drivers side saddle tank and on the passenger side they had fabbed a set of brackets that held five five gallon fuel cans. Plus a bar that locked them in place. So you could carry an additional 25 gallons of diesel.

Far and away, these vehicles are tough as nails. My 1009 is 100% military, including the 24 volt duvac system and works great. My M1031 was converted over to 12 volts by the military, as that's who I got it from (Ft Bliss in El Paso). And it too works great. Both have dual alternators and dual 6TL batteries (made by Interstate and currently still available in green or tan). The 6TL batteries weigh 85 lbs a piece and are pretty much solid lead and with the 'juice' properly maintained will take loads of abuse.

Plus what Bob says about the fuel pump is true. The mechanical pump is the weak link in the fuel system. Both my vehicles have electric inline fuel pumps and they both work well. I have no problems with either. BUT, I would personally suggest a spare electric fuel pump for ANY CUCV you own. AND LEARN HOW TO PROPERLY BLEED THE SYSTEM. Plus consider a couple of spare fuel filters, as they are extremely cheap right now and plentiful.

Also, both of mine ride on the original steel wheels. My M1009 has six (two spares) and soon so will my M1031. In a pinch, I can carry five people, all our dogs (four as of right now) and have enough room for all our food, fuel, ammo, shelters and tools. Plus still have room to spare. That M101 trailer REALLY comes in handy.

OH, and in regards to the CVI, there IS an upgrade to the tranny that should be done. But if you and your buddies 'convoy' and keep it tight you might be surprised how many people will just get right out of the way.

Someone said that if you think driving a military truck gets you any 'special' access or priviledges is mistaken, you are incorrect. Especially in a bug out situation.

When a buddy of mine bugged out in his M109 M35 from Rita in Houston a couple of years ago he was CONSTANTLY waved out of line by LEO's and told of easier ways to get to where he was going. He's former military. Call it 'professional courtesy'. I've experienced it myself. LEO's have a mindset. And unless you 'look wrong' or are doing something odd, you will most likely get that same 'professional courtesy'. Besides, most LEO's respect what us collectors are doing or have done. If you have the look (REALLY SHORT HAIRCUT, no beard, etc) and offer them respect you might be surprised how well they will treat you. Being a 55 year old white male with extremely short hair and clean shaved doesn't hurt. Plus my uniforms all fit properly.

Just my .02

Here's the MVCC website: http://www.mvcconline.org/

Check the Denver St Patricks Day parade pix. I'm top row, third from the right. I was wearing one of my 'worn' uniforms because my better one was dirty. But we agreed in wearing woodland camo for those of us driving post Vietnam vehicles (deueces etc) - the guys wearing Arpat are current military. We enjoy our hobby. But it's also a great excuse to own one or more military vehicle. Also if you look at the top pix, all the guys are standing in front of my M1009 Blazer.

http://www.whenshtf.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73&d=1210895952

BobS

09-03-2008, 09:46 AM

If you mean bought and paid for...not lately. I was assigned a Blazer and a Suburban Saudi Pursuit as my 2 company cars I drove everyday while I worked for GM/MVO (hehehe.... they did not like me pulling up at the proving grounds or at the GM Tech Center in my lifted 1979 Scout 2 with the 392 in it). My wife at the time and I put over 80K miles on the Pursuit and 45K on the Blazer. I am currently (slowly) looking for an M1009 to rebuild into a copy of the original XMV version of the Blazer that was never approved for the military.

Best regards,

Bob

yugoshooter

09-03-2008, 10:13 AM

Wallew. I understand in certain situations having a truck like that is a "free pass" But in a all out Martial law situation they will be looking for fake Military personal. At the DNC and RNC they were specifically looking for Surplus Ambulances, police cars and military trucks because they felt like they were the biggest threat. I'm not saying I wouldn't want one because I love those old beast.

wnn

09-03-2008, 11:15 AM

I am currently (slowly) looking for an M1009 to rebuild into a copy of the original XMV version of the Blazer that was never approved for the military.

I'll bite on this one, ya peaked my intrest whats the diffrence?
Pete

BobS

09-03-2008, 11:36 AM

I'll bite on this one, ya peaked my intrest whats the diffrence?
Pete

Sorry....there were 2 versions of the Blazer that was proposed to GM management for use in the CUCV program.....the minimum changes (rightly or wrongly) was chosen to present to TAACOM. The XMV was a bit....."different".

The XMV (eXpanded Mobility Vehicle) was the basic Blazer with the M1008 pickup axles (special wide track in the front and rear for the beadlock wheels-Dana 60 front and 14 bolt rear with custom ARB type air locking differentials front and rear), HMMWV beadlock wheels and 12.5-36x16.5 Goodyear Wranglers, 3.73 gearsets front and rear, 2 inch lift, special engine crossmember and crossover steering, "fire pin" releasable, disconnecting stabilizer bars front and rear, 1450 joints in the propshafts with flange yokes in the 2 driveshafts, disc brakes front and rear, the choice of the TH400 automatic or a wide ratio SM420 4 speed manual trans (never built-the mule used the auto trans), CTIS through the axles (not the offered external system which had lines running down the fender on the outside to a central, rotating valve on each wheel hub), and some other, more esoteric pieces such as special oil pan and pickup for the engine, special deep water fording kit, full rollover protection cage, hydraulic winch front and rear, etc....

We were able to get XMV to run 100% grades for and aft (mil spec called for 60% for CUCV) and 45% sideslope (barely-mil spec was 30% for CUCV). Basically, all the problems seen in GW1 with the CUCV program vehicles would never have occured had the XMV been used, instead of the basic M1009. From a cost standpoint, the XMV was about 25-30% more per vehicle than what TAACOM was allowed to spend by Congress.

You can thank your congresscritters for not spending the money to protect those lives.....

Best regards,

Bob

wallew

09-03-2008, 02:07 PM

Bob,
I would like to thank you for your service. AND apologize if I sounded 'critical' because it was not my intent. I was curious if you've 'lived' with any of the CUCV's. That's all.

And yeah, the military missed a bet with the XMV AND using the Suburban platform with heavy axles.

I've owned several of the Suburbans, both gas and diesel and am seriously considering buying another and adding heavy axles, then painting it either three color camo or desert tan, depending on where we end up.

Again, thx for your service AND sorry about what may have appeared to be an attack, because that was NOT my issue.

Oh, YS there is a HUGE difference when everybody is fleeing from a SHTF scenario and the DNC and RNC stuff. I even did recon on 'Recreate 68' by attending two different meetings and then passing that info on to some friends of mine who are security supervisors for federal facilities who were interested in this group.

During any SHTF, most LEO's and military people are only trying to keep the herd moving in the right direction, moving obstructions off the highway when they occur (accidents and out of fuel cars) and see military vehicle owners as either 'exmilitary' OR a person who 'gets it'.

I've actually had conversations with LEO's who attend the places where we reenact. They are fully armed and WE are fully armed. They see us as 'help' rather than someone they would have issues with. I have had this conversation more than a dozen times in the past two years. One was in downtown Denver, when the Museum of Natural History was having a huge party for managers of museums from all over the world. We displayed eight vehilces from WWII to current and had people dressed from WWII to current military. AND WE WERE ALL ARMED. The LEO's didn't even blink. I even spoke with a really nice lady from New Zealand who was very interested in our hobby, as apparently in New Zealand, you are not allowed to own 'military vehicles' - her words, not mine. I explained we were more living history rather than some group of whackos. Which is true.

But here I am, on WHENSHTF talking about it. So maybe I would be classified as one of those 'whackos' anyway.

BobS

09-03-2008, 02:27 PM

doc762399

10-03-2008, 08:48 PM

So for paint i would suggesst a paint product called zolitone? It is a a pint product that has beads of paint in the it, that when sprayed at differant pressures creats differant colors. It is a hardy paint. My grand father painted his FJ40 with it, and has lost his FJ40 3 times in the last two hunting seasons. Simply it blends in with the surroundings. It's doesn't stand out in a crowd of vehicles, it just looks slightly dirty. The paint is flat so there is no shine to it to reflect and give you away in a hidden area. I would add a pic of him and his FJ40 with his elk but can't figure out how to do that on here.
And i would lift your 2wd c1500

doc762399

10-03-2008, 08:51 PM

Oh yeh it's called ZOLATONE, just google it, this stuff is tuff. i acciddentaly shot my grandpa's FJ40 with a .22lr and the paint didn't chip, but there was a dent.

shovelnose

10-09-2008, 09:59 PM

lol. sorry pap i shot your truck!

how did you manage to explain that one?

doc762399

10-09-2008, 10:27 PM

Uh, he still hasn't seen the dent and that was like 12 years ago. Just couldn't bring my self to tell my grandpa i wounded his pride and joy, so my older cousin put the FJ40 into a boulder on the same spot i dented it. Here is a pic of my grandpa and his elk and his FJ40