Raiding: The Pro's, Con's, In's & Out's

[mitunnelrat]

I've been reading some of the responses to a post I made referencing raiding, and I've come to think there is some confusion as to the point I was attempting to make. I figured I'd start a discussion on exactly what "raid" means to each of us and why its either acceptable or unacceptable as an option. I'll post my thoughts on the topic after a few responses.

[Prepper]

"Raiding" and looting are the same in my mind. Basically, it's taking something that belongs to someone else. Now, if someone abandons property, then taking abandoned (which means they don't want to keep it) property would be "scavenging."

[snowjoker]

I agree, "raiding" seems to impart the thought that the owners of said valuables you are trying to obtain are still in control of them.

"Scavaging" is most often the more acceptable and safer option. Because if you come raiding at my place, well, lets just say you will get much more than you bargained for. But if you are scavaging, that means I am already bugged out and you can have whatever I leave behind...Just watch out for boobytraps...

[yugoshooter]

When you have the choice between starving and raiding I say most humans will do what they have to to survive. Looting to me is taking TVs and stuff you don't need. Survival is doing what you have to and if that means raiding a store or warehouse of food to survive then I will do it if my preps should run out. Only under the worst circumstances would I raid a private persons stuff because I know that the person may be in the same circumstances as me and most likely be armed. Remember starvation makes a strange bedfellow.

Thats one of the reasons I eat insects and worms now so my body is use to it when SHTF and I hope I don't have to raid anyone because of the survival skills I am obtaining now. I know it sounds gross but any survivalist should be out when ever they can eating grasshoppers,worms,grubs and roadkill if its fresh. A couple of weeks ago I hit a opossum in the head with my car by accident and took it home cleaned and gutted it and made it diner for the next night. Yes it tasted kind of funky but I kept it down and felt better about killing it instead of letting it rot in the road.

[Howlingwolf]

Ok here goes as you asked for my opinion.

I live in a rural community and that may be influencing my thought process on this.

I guess once I am out of the City I would want to stay out of the City. Also the term raiding brings up different images in each person's mind. To me it would seem that this would make me the same as those I am tring to protect myself against.

I am hoping that when finished, my prep supplies would last me until I was self sufficient and had food suppliies of my own. I don't think I will need to risk my safety trying to find odd's and ends left in looted markets and other stores.

I know the thought of stealth and eluding seem exciting to some...getting in and getting out so to speak, But this will not be like a movie or a video game...it will be life and death.

The need for special medicines is a factor I suppose but at the risk of sounding cold hearted, what are those people going to do when there just isn't any left anywhere. It could well get to the point of natural selection and survival of the fittest. I read elsewhere, on this site I believe, that accidents could be the leading cause of death after an event. There is just not going to be the level of healthcarewe are accustomed to and infections will kill many people as well as resperatory illness cold's and flu.

So I will bug in...work my little bit of land, raise what food and animals I can and forage and hunt if able. I will not make the 30 mile trip to the City unless all else fails.

Wolf

[mitunnelrat]

Ok, I'll throw my position in now. I think I have enough to illustrate my point.

Definition: (DOD, NATO) An operation, usually small scale, involving a swift penetration of hostile territory to secure information, confuse the enemy, or to destroy installations. It ends with a planned withdrawal upon completion of the assigned mission.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/glossarytermsr/g/r5128.htm

But there is more to a raid than just this. See also:

Within a tactical mission, a raiding group may consist of personnel specially trained in this tactic (such as commandos or guerrilla fighters), regular soldiers, or any organized group of combatants. Raids have a specific purpose and are not normally intended to capture and hold terrain, but instead finish with the raiding force quickly retreating to a previously defended position prior to the enemy forces being able to respond in a coordinated manner or formulate a counter-attack.
The purposes of a raid may include:
to demoralize, confuse, or exhaust an enemy
to ransack or pillage a location
to obtain property or capture people
to destroy goods or other things with an economic value
to free POWs
to kill or capture specific people
to gather intelligence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_(military)

The first thing I'd like to draw attention to within both of these quotes is that neither specifies any degree of force is required to conduct a raid, nor does a raid have to be stealthy, but raids can and do incorporate either one or both of these. From what I'm seeing in the replies I've gotten is that people are limiting themselves to one facet of raiding: Dynamic entries similar to police raids.

From what I remember, raiding actually has a process to follow.

1. Planning and intelligence.
2. Training/ dry runs in scenarios as close to real as possible.
3. Insertion.
4. Execution of mission.
5. Extraction.

Going back to the scenarios that sparked this thread (which, incidentally, isn't something I'm likely to do personally) your "raid" process could look like this:

1. Network with urban survivalists to provide each other with support and information. Support could be providing a safe haven, transportation, defensive weapons, etc. Offensive tactics weren't what I had in mind, aggressive action has a tendency to reduce your chance at surviving encounters.

One of the best ways to play this scenario, assuming you have advance communication, is to contact your support fella ahead of time so he can stage the supplies you need -if possible- at his house. Insert, reimburse him for the supplies, and extract. Done. Circumstances have a way of changing from one individual and/or encounter to another so its important to think outside the box and be creative.

Identify any choke point that may slow you down.

2. Train to minimize disruption at the choke points.

3. I still stand by leaving a few people outside of town to hold your gear and provide transportation home later. I do agree with soberups however, if you need special meds bite the bullet and take your wife in - go unarmed and however else you need to. I'm willing to bet that if meds are available "they" won't allow a healthy man to walk off with them.

4. Execute your mission: i.e.
a. meet your contact
b. borrow gear to be returned before you leave
c. fill your rations and get the card stamped (or go buy food at the store, etc.)
d. return to your contact

5. Leave the city in whatever manner you determine is needed. If its locked down find alternate routes avoiding roads, or just walk out if the city is open. Avoid fighting. You will likely lose.

No fighting, no theft, no unnecessary risks taken. As for looting or scavenging they are separate actions.

I should have qualified my thought process when making that post I suppose, but didn't really think about it at the time. Raiding - again - doesn't have to be violent or sneaky, it could be a simple matter of properly planning how you will get in and out of a place you don't want to go to get something you need. I can't think of too many of us that want to return to urban areas once we hit the country, but circumstances may not allow for a choice. Having alternative methods to meet your goals is ok, its called contingency planning.

BTW, I asked Howlingwolf specifically to post his thoughts because he seemed offended, and I can see why. Hopefully this has cleared the air some for both of us.

[Howlingwolf]

BTW, I asked Howlingwolf specifically to post his thoughts because he seemed offended, and I can see why. Hopefully this has cleared the air some for both of us.

mitunnelrat -

I would first like to assure you I wasn't offended. I read all points of view with a very open mind and usually learn something from each of these posts.

Could you elaborate a little more on what things might drive the need for the raids as you have described them?

Thanks,

Wolf

[hitech_hick]

The first thing I'd like to draw attention to within both of these quotes is that neither specifies any degree of force is required to conduct a raid, nor does a raid have to be stealthy, but raids can and do incorporate either one or both of these. From what I'm seeing in the replies I've gotten is that people are limiting themselves to one facet of raiding: Dynamic entries similar to police raids.

From what I remember, raiding actually has a process to follow.

1. Planning and intelligence.
2. Training/ dry runs in scenarios as close to real as possible.
3. Insertion.
4. Execution of mission.
5. Extraction.

Going back to the scenarios that sparked this thread (which, incidentally, isn't something I'm likely to do personally) your "raid" process could look like this:

1. Network with urban survivalists to provide each other with support and information. Support could be providing a safe haven, transportation, defensive weapons, etc. Offensive tactics weren't what I had in mind, aggressive action has a tendency to reduce your chance at surviving encounters.

One of the best ways to play this scenario, assuming you have advance communication, is to contact your support fella ahead of time so he can stage the supplies you need -if possible- at his house. Insert, reimburse him for the supplies, and extract. Done. Circumstances have a way of changing from one individual and/or encounter to another so its important to think outside the box and be creative.

Identify any choke point that may slow you down.

2. Train to minimize disruption at the choke points.

3. I still stand by leaving a few people outside of town to hold your gear and provide transportation home later. I do agree with soberups however, if you need special meds bite the bullet and take your wife in - go unarmed and however else you need to. I'm willing to bet that if meds are available "they" won't allow a healthy man to walk off with them.

4. Execute your mission: i.e.
a. meet your contact
b. borrow gear to be returned before you leave
c. fill your rations and get the card stamped (or go buy food at the store, etc.)
d. return to your contact

5. Leave the city in whatever manner you determine is needed. If its locked down find alternate routes avoiding roads, or just walk out if the city is open. Avoid fighting. You will likely lose.

No fighting, no theft, no unnecessary risks taken. As for looting or scavenging they are separate actions.

I should have qualified my thought process when making that post I suppose, but didn't really think about it at the time. Raiding - again - doesn't have to be violent or sneaky, it could be a simple matter of properly planning how you will get in and out of a place you don't want to go to get something you need. I can't think of too many of us that want to return to urban areas once we hit the country, but circumstances may not allow for a choice. Having alternative methods to meet your goals is ok, its called contingency planning.

BTW, I asked Howlingwolf specifically to post his thoughts because he seemed offended, and I can see why. Hopefully this has cleared the air some for both of us.

That definitely helps clarify things, otherwise I would consider raiding along with pillaging and plundering in the same breath.

Scavenging though would be completely different and would need to be considered on a case by case basis.


hick

[chicom]

The only time raiding would be appropriate would be when a hostile group is operating in your AO. Only concrete intelligence supporting the fact that this group has perpetrated aggrievances and poses a direct threat against your community, can action be taken.


Otherwise it is akin to pillaging.

[yugoshooter]

The only time raiding would be appropriate would be when a hostile group is operating in your AO. Only concrete intelligence supporting the fact that this group has perpetrated aggrievances and poses a direct threat against your community, can action be taken.


Otherwise it is akin to pillaging.Morality is a great thing but when starvation comes a knocking at your door morals will be the one starving to death. Survival is just that and humans will do what they have to to survive because its part of our nature. You can be as moral as you like now but when the SHTF and you are your family are starving you will forget all about morals. Now the danger of surviving this way is the greatest threat to survival and you could wind up dead for your efforts but you will definitely die if you run out of preps and starve.

[john in jax]

I'm fine with salvaging or scavaging, it is only to be expected.

I agree the term "raiding" implies violence which is a negative when it is used against what are (for lack of a better word) "innocents".

Would I go "raiding" if my life or the life of one of my kids depended upon it . . . if there were no other options . . .? Probably.

[Legio]

Morality is a great thing but when starvation comes a knocking at your door morals will be the one starving to death.

You'd better have food for me then, or I'll roast you!! LOL!!

[gunbuilder69]

We all might agree that we certainly would "raid" a threatening camp if its advantagious to our party and would "scavenge" whats left after! agreed?

[soberups]

I remember watching the Katrina aftermath on TV. There was a guy leaving a flooded, abandoned drugstore with a shopping cart full of bottled water, canned food, diapers and other necessities. I wouldnt have any problem doing that, but I would be ready and willing to pay for what I took, even if it meant mailing the owner a check weeks or months later. I am not a thief. I call that "foraging."
I also saw the looters that were taking advantage of the situation to steal things that weren't theirs and weren't needed for survival. I call that "looting" or "theft."
I will do what I need to do to survive. Hopefully that will never involve having to rip someone else off.

[mr slow]

When the SHTF there will be no rules. I will only take from my enemies who would do the same to me. If they are now our enemies we will kill them and take what we need.Other groups that have done no harm to our group , we will try and work with ,and even help.I feel we will let the savages go at it at some super market who have not prepared. We will use this time to gather our group together. Let say we see a large truck that a few looters are now in control of. They are coming out of the Jewel food store with there posse all loaded up with goodies. That would be very tempting when your armed with a 308 rifle and know how to drive a truck. I will try and work with other but if they get in our way, look out! Spoils of war.

[mitunnelrat]

If someone had asked me what a raid was before I looked up a definition I would have described it as a quick operation with a defined entry and exit strategy. We've had discussions here re: cities being considered hostile ground, so our main goal is to avoid them. However, if circumstances forced me to enter a city for supplies my new goal is to gather them and leave as quickly as possible.

Any new survivalists unlucky enough to have the shtf before they can acquire much may need to bolster what they do have with FEMA rations available from urban relief stations. The same would be true of a veteran survivalist separated from his/her supplies. Your goal here is not to aggress anything, but can anyone tell me they want to strip themselves of an effective defense, in a densely populated area, when we've also had discussions on how to carry a long arm while setting up camps in remote areas? and also made remarks on having handguns that we can hide while in cities?

Yes, you can use a raid to assault an "enemy", or you can use a "snoop and poop" method to gather materials and information. Or, you could study the principles/mechanics of raiding, understand them, and apply them to how you operate in given situations. Whether you honor "right" and "wrong" while you are at it is a personal choice, and not exclusive to these circumstances.

Improvise, adapt, and overcome.

[Howlingwolf]

Any new survivalists unlucky enough to have the shtf before they can acquire much may need to bolster what they do have with FEMA rations available from urban relief stations.

I may still accept the FEMA rations if they are available here. That would help me to blend in wouldn't it? I would stand in line and use the rations to supplement my preps and extend them while appearing to b"just one of the folks".

I never discuss my preps with any one, with the exception of you guys here. I want to appear to be in the same boat as every one else here in my small town.

Wolf

[mrclean4hire]

Raiding = stealing imo
Scavenging = survival

[mr slow]

I CAN SEE THE GANGS RUNNING A PROTECTION RACKET ON THE SHEEP.ALL THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE NOTHING WILL BE RUNNING TO THE GANGS FOR WORK.IN MY CITY THAT MEANS THOUSAND'S OF THEM. THE GANGS CAN'T WAIT FOR THE SHTF. IT WILL BE TIME FOR REVENGE ,AND THE LOST OPORTUNITIES THAT THEY BEEN DREAMING ABOUT. ATER THEY ARM UP THEY WILL HEAD OUT OF THE CITIES AND START MAKING DEMANDS.WHEN THE WELFARE CHECKS STOP AND THEY HAVE NO MONEY FOR THERE DRUGS, ITS GOING TO GET REAL SERIOUS QUICK. You can bet the gangs will have good stuff. Why not raid them if they be slipping.

[Prepper]

I understand from reading the posts that "raiding" has different meanings. Basically, from a military and non-military perspective. Being the non-military type, when I read the word "raiding" or "raids" I think of Vikings (murdering, plundering, and raping). A strategic ambush or attack on a hostile group (gangs), I don't consider a raid.

I have never been in the military or an actual battle. The only experience I have of armed conflict is being a member of a competition paint ball team. We practiced every week and won many tournaments. We also paricipated in weekend long scenarios. Our team had tournament equipment and com equipment, so in the scenarios our team was always designated as a search and destroy team. Even though we were better equiped, we were cut to peices more than once.

This being said, raids or strategic ambushes and attacks would be extremely dangerous. Unless you are absolutely desparate, I believe the loss would out weigh the benefit of such attacks.

[ICDUMBPEOPLE]

Morality is a great thing but when starvation comes a knocking at your door morals will be the one starving to death. Survival is just that and humans will do what they have to to survive because its part of our nature. You can be as moral as you like now but when the SHTF and you are your family are starving you will forget all about morals. Now the danger of surviving this way is the greatest threat to survival and you could wind up dead for your efforts but you will definitely die if you run out of preps and starve.



Yeppers...


those who have nothing, have nothing to lose !


when it comes to basic instinct of hunger /thirst , you can forget about morals, rational , religions , and any other gimmicks humans have been trained to accept .

I think the best scenario anyone can ask for is to try and prepare themselves so they wont have to "raid " others and to find a location where one doesnt have to greatly worry about others " raiding " them .

Luckily my location should fit that scenario well . I think of this area as a modern day Mayberry . It even looks a little like Mayberry , in that our gas pumps still have round analog numbers , crime is virtually non - existant and the local corner convenience center has a old time barber shop and many family businesses still running...some being built as long ago as the
1890s ! ...


There is a certain charm to living in this type of area , where big business and greedy parasites havent invaded or corrupted the towns mentality or the business"s moral idealogies. The people in this town still gather to vote on local issues { like sales taxes , water bill prices , school funding , etc}

Leaving home doors unlocked , car doors unlocked and machinery out in the yard { excavators, quads , 3 wheelers ,etc} is common in these parts. It really is a nice way to live , not having the fear of crime .

[mr slow]

I can sense you people are scare of us city people. Maybe walk in and just ask for help.

[Lone Eagle]

The larger cities, like LA, NY, Seattle, Portland.....they will become warzones whenthe food runs dry. The smaller towns, like mine, are already making "preps" to help those who will need it. We just voted to install a "boxcar cafe" in our neighborhood, which will work similar to the old soup kitchen of the Depression, but will be run by the community. The local grocery stores are helping to stock it already, and it's not even near finished. With all the layoffs, people need to start helping other people this way. The larger the community banded together, the less likelihood of "thugs" muscling in. I can't go into details right now, but I'm on "detail", if ya know what I mean. :)

[mitunnelrat]

Since this thread was resurrected, I'll post the information I tried giving from memory in the OP. In that post I had had 5 elements to effective raiding. There are actually six, and I stand by my original points. The following information was copied from an episode on The Military Channel.

Elements of Raiding
1. Clarity of purpose
2. Appropriate means
3. Intelligence
4. Insertion
5. Execution
6. Exit strategy

As for being afraid of entering cities, thats not something that concerns me overly much, but I do recognize that as the population increases so too does the probability of crime.

[AKtheBear]

Morality is a great thing but when starvation comes a knocking at your door morals will be the one starving to death. Survival is just that and humans will do what they have to to survive because its part of our nature. You can be as moral as you like now but when the SHTF and you are your family are starving you will forget all about morals. Now the danger of surviving this way is the greatest threat to survival and you could wind up dead for your efforts but you will definitely die if you run out of preps and starve.

I agree with Yugo. Morality is a very subjective thing.

When life gets hard, life gets cheap.

Now, that said, I have problems with those who are -planning- on using force when SHTF is just a probable but still theoretical scenario.

Realistically, we will all do what we have to do to survive. However, I don't think that is what anyone should be focussing on as a survivor.

Just my .02